Christianity, witchcraft and Satatanic beliefs

These are my beliefs and I write this to open a discusion, to understand others and to hopefully learn. I seek not to convert, convince or sway any other to my beliefs, now thats clear we start. Christianity the great religion of the the last 2000+ years, a religion of blood and lies, I have read much within these pages and even read a statement by a wiccan claiming her practice has brought her closer to her church (christian), how for the Goddess's sake could this be so?. As a witch I deny the exsistance of this make beleive god and worship a Goddess and God both known by many names . I do not question that a man named Jesus was born, the son of God I think not, a great orator and leader yes (probably a witch) but none the less a man as any other. Having read much not the least of being Robert Thortons books on the the witch hunts in the middle ages in Europe and Salem. He exposes the reason why they happened, the constant stuggle against foreigen invaders taxing all Europes resources's and finally the black plague, this was a brief summary.The Jews and Lepers came first to feel the roth of the Holy Bloody Roman Empire the plague was the last straw, women having had their place in village life systematically eroded since the comeing of christianty were now singled out by documents like the Mallius Maleficrium written by the Dominican monk Heinrich Kramer, let me quote "All wickness is but little to the wickness of a woman. what else is woman but a foe to friendship, an unescapable punishment, a neccessary evil, a natural temptation, a desirable calamity, a domestic danger, a delectable detiment, an evil of nature, painted in fair colours" I could go on but I find this sickening, what hope did we hold when for all the troubles striking the church they trot out Witchcraft and innocent women and men are hanged (this is where the term lynched comes from) and worse burned alive, all this for control and wealth by a church with a long and bloody history. For those interested the numbers hanged and burned is varied, as low 20-30.000 to as high as 100.000 + In the fledgeling America in Salem it all started because of 3 young girls and an acusation against some one they had argued with, thanks to the recent trip to Europe by a leading minister, Increase Mather (president of the then Harvard College) and his son Cotton, America got its taste for witch burnings, fear of starvation and Indian attacks set the mood of the people and as sheep they followed, fear of witches and witchcraft runs deep even to this day. Satan the Devil the fallen angel, whatever you may know him as just as witches in Europe tended to gain in notorietie after 1200CE, the very earlyest paintings depict him as a angel in a field dividing sheep (souls) with god, 1 for heaven 1 for hell, somehow he did the wrong thing and was imprisoned for a thousand years, thus the churchs threat after 1000CE he was free and as fear of witches spread so did Satans. Pictures of Satan change dramaticaly from about 1200CE and he grows ever more fearful as am image, I have read SIN'S posts and her profile, yes SIN I admire you, your writtings on what you are I find are everything a modern woman should strive to be, Inderpendent, honest,and understanding the value of self, I will be interested to see if you have anything to add as to how you see "Satan". Well thats about it I'm a witch and proud, I beleive in a Goddess and God both of above and below. Christianity has no place in my life never has never will.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Celticwitch on May 5, 2008 at 2:07am: My greetings Beloved_Isis.Nice name and thank you for your thoughts. Wise and Blessed be Celticwitch

Permalink Reply by Celticwitch on May 5, 2008 at 2:00am: Merry meet Stone Warlock. You have read my feelings in regard to Jesus a man no more or less than any other, simply surounded by christian mythology and to put it bluntly "bullshit" the symbolism surrounding the numbers 666 is interesting I'm trying to research this further, I use it in 1 of my EMail address's and yes a few people ask what it means and why. I like your idea of amaigamating "Creation,Horrors and The pied piper, a dissusion on these would be quite enlightning. Wise and blessed be Celticwitch

Permalink Reply by Pavlor on May 4, 2008 at 4:22pm: I want to be in on this one once I find the time!

Pav

Permalink Reply by Celticwitch on May 5, 2008 at 2:03am: Greeting Pavior. I await your reading and any comments you may have. Blessed be Celticwitch

Permalink Reply by Dave on July 4, 2008 at 1:30am: Greetings Celtic Witch,

I couldn't agree with your sentiments more! As an hereditary Witch myself, I also find it difficult to comprehend how some modern pagans can claim to be both christian AND witches.. there is now even a "tradition" of Christian Witchcraft getting around?! Personally, I believe these individuals have little understanding of either the pagan or church teachings, for if they did they would recognise that they are indeed incompatible. More than this, they are also in denial about known history, and how the "good christians" treated our pagan ancestors.. thereby dishonouring their own ancestors in the process! The tenets of the old faith traditionally maintained an attitude of tolerance toward other folk and their beliefs, christianity when it arrived in Europe just being seen as the "new religion" with perhaps a few unusual ideas. Unfortunately the political agenda of the judeo-christian faith (found also in other mono-theistic belief systems such as Islam), particular as expressed by the Roman Catholic Church, does not allow for such mutual tolerance. In retrospect therefore, I believe tolerance is only wise if truly going both ways.. something we won't see readily happening with Christianity, given that the Church's Inquisition Order is still alive and well, even if appearing to pander to the politically correct by now defining it's purpose to be focused on activities 'within' the Church in ensuring doctinal matters are upheld. The Dominican Order is also still very active, and this too was one of the Orders devoted to horrific attack of pagans and witches during the historical Inquisition period.. which anyone who wants to check their history will readily find mentioned. Points to bear in mind in case we ever see another Inquisition, which some of us believe is quite likely.. though that would certainly sort out those who are pagan in name only from those truly of the Old Ways.

Does Satan figure in Witchcraft? This one is a great source of debate and a topic in itself. Basically, the Horned God adored by the European pagans was identified with Satan by the Christians in the medieval period.. so in this sense at least, yes they are the same. I know of some Witch families which readily adopted or accepted this as a name for their god.. who is indeed the 'god of this world', though understood slightly differently to the biblical terms. Given that by the medieval period, to be 'discovered' as a witch guaranteed you and your family and friends would experience a slow process of torture resulting in death, those who banded together or belonged to covens undertook various methods of ensuring that those involved (or seeking involvement) weren't spies in service to the Church.. one tactic was to actively embrace "Satan" as a name for their god and to use the christian fear of the devil against the enemy. While Satan as 'ha-satan' emerged from the Judaic concept of god's 'law enforcer', prior to this it originated from the older godforms of Set and Sata, who do indeed have connections with the Old Faith. Lucifer also, while later confused with Satan, is also an earlier godform akin to witchcraft, originating from the area of old Italy.. where he was a god of light and the sun.. before this role was usurped by the former mouse god Apollo.

As to whether Jesus ever existed or not, I am of the opinion that the jury is still out on this one. If he did exist at all, it certainly is not as commonly portrayed, but probably as a rabbi or teacher from within the Essene sect. Personally, I don't see any concept of Jesus as particularly relevant to my practice of the ancient religion of my ancestors.

Great post Celtic Witch, I am glad that there are others out there asking the right questions and remembering the Old Faith as it truly was.. and IS !

MYAMGTOYT

Dave.

Permalink Reply by Pavlor on July 4, 2008 at 3:08am: Dave,

Firstly, after reading your post, I felt that you were interpreting Christianity as "the Church". This is not always the case, is it? I know Christians who are deeply against the Church and they believe Christ is Christianity, regardless of the institution that has been built round the faith. They do not go to Church or even belong to it (in Finland, you are born a member of the Lutheran Church if your parents are Lutheran). They have taken themselves off the Church list, but they are still Christian. Now, if you take away all the trappings of the Church in Christianity, what are you left with? Just Christ and his teachings. They are bad things at all, if you ask me. I believe this is how you are able to be a Christian and a Pagan. It really depends on what your interpretations of 1) Christ and 2) being a Pagan. For me, there is no conflict of belief.

Permalink Reply by Dave on July 4, 2008 at 10:25pm: Greetings Pavlor,

Thanks for your response. Within the context of the medieval witch-hunts, it was primarily christianity as "the church" which one was dealing with, certainly today it is a different matter.. though I think one will find many modern sects of Christianity still derive their origins (directly or indirectly) from Catholicism, with reinterpretations of their own. In my own dealings, I do however differentiate between Christianity the religion and those individual Christians.. it is the religion and it's tenets I have issue with, not the individual person. As to those who are Christian in name only, they are probably similar to those folk who hang a pentagram around their neck and believe that's enough to call themselves a Witch.. in both cases, there is no deep commitment to the path.. and therefore I am reluctant to consider either of them a typical or genuine representation of their religion.

Your comment that it depends on definitions could well be the case Pavlor. I'd be interested in how exactly you define the terms 'Christian' and 'Pagan'? To me a christian is someone who adheres to the teachings of the christian Bible, worships the christian god (yahweh/jehovah) and believes in their saviour Jesus Christ who is the son of their god. Anyone who reads the Bible (the official text for Christianity) will find that it expressly forbids witchcraft and the worship of gods other than yahweh/jehovah, that the christian god who is described as peace-loving and benevolent is in practice a rather horrific and nasty fellow, and that accounts of Jesus are equally contradictory. Given the fact that the Bible is a grossly inaccurate translation from the original texts and an extremely poor representation of history, it would take a devoted student prepared to put in a lot of effort to start making sense of it all.. personally, I've read better fiction. However allowing the Bible to speak for itself, it is clearly AGAINST the practices of the pagan.. this was demonstrated also in the witch hunts! To use a biblical quote: "by their fruits ye shall know them". Yes there are modern reinterpretations of Christianity, however to me this indicates that as a religion it is impractical and that some of it's members no longer want their intelligence insulted.

I'd be interested to hear how modern 'christian pagans' reconcile the conflicting beliefs and values which exist between the two paths.. both in principle and in practice.

Thanks again for your post Pavlor.

Dave.

Permalink Reply by Pavlor on July 5, 2008 at 4:04am: Thanks for your response. Within the context of the medieval witch-hunts, it was primarily christianity as "the church" which one was dealing with, certainly today it is a different matter.. though I think one will find many modern sects of Christianity still derive their origins (directly or indirectly) from Catholicism, with reinterpretations of their own. In my own dealings, I do however differentiate between Christianity the religion and those individual Christians.. it is the religion and it's tenets I have issue with, not the individual person. As to those who are Christian in name only, they are probably similar to those folk who hang a pentagram around their neck and believe that's enough to call themselves a Witch.. in both cases, there is no deep commitment to the path.. and therefore I am reluctant to consider either of them a typical or genuine representation of their religion.

For me, there are those who are "culturally" Christian and those who are "committed" Christians. The former begets the latter, but the latter can beget the former but can also be independent of. One doesn't have to have a "deep commitment" to either in order to self-apply the appellation "Christian" or "Witch". It can be a mere superficial feeling of belonging to a group or belief-stratum without the need to follow the prescribed religion or belief system to the letter, which in the case of being a Witch is virtually impossible, as I understand it. New-wave Witchcraft is often just a sense of "making sense" and now the social stigmata of Witchcraft has started to dissolve and not be a 'big deal', more and more people are applying themselves with the name as a term of affinity rather than feeling the 'need' to be a full-blown devotee of the Craft, whatever that can mean in this day and age. Social paradigms concerning Witchcraft and the self-label of Witch have changed, depending on the culture or cultures one lives in, thus making it easier to be what one wants to be. With the advent of the Internet and all its vehicles of global communications has also made it easier for an individual to self-define and self-label. One no longer has to be an initiate of a Mystery Tradition or live the life of a Witch under tutelage for a "year and a day" (sic.) to label oneself a Witch. I can call myself a Witch merely because I want to; no one can say anything different. People can judge me as they wish; it is their prerogative. Do you think I would listen? Hell no; most people are self-indulged, self-important and self-absorbed. I, myself, am all of these but the twist is in the awareness, I believe. I am not a Witch, nor am I Christian, and many even have issues with me calling myself a Pagan as I don’t believe in pantheons of gods and I certainly don’t believe in a Goddess. Good God, no. I don’t say she is make-belief, but I do state I don’t believe in her. What is the Goddess in my opinion? She is some kind of anthropomorphised collective consciousness of the Earth itself, and I reject the notion that the Earth is male or female so this is why I call it *IT* rather than *SHE*. I need no gender polarity or binaries in my life as I do not see the world in terms of yins and yans, but a spectrum of in-betweens without prescribed labels that are nothing more than social constructs that enable fundamentalism to dictate how we should be and act and societal labels just pander to societal authorities that are there to “show” us what is right and wrong. Right and wrong are subjective labels within ethical and moral frameworks that serve to vehicularise behaviour according to those who “know better”. Better than whom? Your last sentence (underlined) exemplifies this type of belief-behaviour, which is fine as it’s your opinion. I disagree, however, which is my opinion.

Permalink Reply by Pavlor on July 5, 2008 at 4:04am: Your comment that it depends on definitions could well be the case Pavlor. I'd be interested in how exactly you define the terms 'Christian' and 'Pagan'? To me a christian is someone who adheres to the teachings of the christian Bible, worships the christian god (yahweh/jehovah) and believes in their saviour Jesus Christ who is the son of their god. Anyone who reads the Bible (the official text for Christianity) will find that it expressly forbids witchcraft and the worship of gods other than yahweh/jehovah, that the christian god who is described as peace-loving and benevolent is in practice a rather horrific and nasty fellow, and that accounts of Jesus are equally contradictory. Given the fact that the Bible is a grossly inaccurate translation from the original texts and an extremely poor representation of history, it would take a devoted student prepared to put in a lot of effort to start making sense of it all.. personally, I've read better fiction. However allowing the Bible to speak for itself, it is clearly AGAINST the practices of the pagan.. this was demonstrated also in the witch hunts! To use a biblical quote: "by their fruits ye shall know them". Yes there are modern reinterpretations of Christianity, however to me this indicates that as a religion it is impractical and that some of it's members no longer want their intelligence insulted.

I didn’t grow up in a Christian household so my view of Christianity is that of an outsider. Often, a Christian to me is someone who is simply cultural, i.e., grew up in a Christian culture and followed those rules adhering to Christianity. This could be as simple as celebrating Christian holidays. To this day, I don’t know when Easter is and have to ask every year when it is *lol*. This is maybe why I find it easy to understand that a Christian doesn’t have to go to church to be a Christian. I believe in “Christ Consciousness”; for me this is a universal vibration of love that Christ imparted in his teachings. I have no idea if Christ is a mythical character – to me it doesn’t matter. He is like the goddess in my eyes – whether he existed or not is irrelevant. Anyone who believes in magic understands the laws of intent, so whether anything exists on the material plane has no bearing on the final result. Pagan? Good God, I don’t believe anyone knows what it is, to be honest; all I know, people are suspicious of me when I say I practise Daemonolatry and I’m Pagan. I have nothing to prove to anyone, therefore I don’t particularly care. Others care more than I do when they try to “prove” I am not a Pagan.

Permalink Reply by Pavlor on July 5, 2008 at 4:04am: Given the fact that the Bible is a grossly inaccurate translation from the original texts and an extremely poor representation of history, it would take a devoted student prepared to put in a lot of effort to start making sense of it all … Anyone who reads the Bible (the official text for Christianity) will find that it expressly forbids witchcraft …

I found this interesting. On the one hand, you state that the Bible is “a grossly inaccurate translation from the original texts” and then you go on to state that “[A]nyone who reads the Bible … will find that it expressly forbids witchcraft …”. Have you looked at the translations for witchcraft in the Bible? I have, and I wouldn’t take “witchcraft” at face-value *lol* In fact, I’d go as far to say that it doesn’t forbid witchcraft at all. Are you willing to accept the translations of ‘anan, qesem, ‘ob, ‘kasaph without actually looking at their meanings in the original and from a cultural and temporal understanding? You may well be surprised, Dave!

Permalink Reply by Celticlass...FAERIE QUEEN on July 5, 2008 at 1:14pm: I know I was/am................Like i said I've been studying Celtic Christianity in Ireland,since the "last" discussion on this........

Permalink Reply by Dave on July 11, 2008 at 11:26am: Yes I have looked at the translations of biblical terms in the original languages, and also considered it's cultural context and earlier origins.. have you? I know the point you are trying to make regarding "anan, qesem, ‘ob, ‘kasaph" Pavlor, however the text in it's entirety elaborates for those who don't get the point.. all these things (weather prediction, divination, mediumship, sorcery, etc) and a long list of other practices are itemised as things involved in Witchcraft and/or forbidden. No surprise at all Pavlor, it seems judeo-christian attitudes are far from temporal!

Dave.