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     Hi!  I'm kinda late talking about this but I wanted to ask anyway.  I am well aware of what the Dianic Tradition is and what happened at PantheaCon '12 (at least I think it was 2012) with the Rite of Lilith which led to the creation of Pan-Dianic.

      I'm also aware that Dianic Wicca focuses solely on Women's Mysteries, the Goddess by Herself, and women.  While the Dianic Tradition is not against men it is solely space for women by there is a Dianic-based organization/coven/group called The Living Temple of Diana by Devin Hunter.

     So my basic questions are:  What do you Dianic Wiccans think about this?  Should transgender women be allowed in?  Should men be allowed?  Should there be separate traditions that focus solely on the Goddess and solely on the God?

      Please share your thoughts and opinions

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Dianics aren't Wiccan. They've dropped that connection because they only worship the "Goddess."

There are male Dianics and they have nothing against males being within some of the covens.

Well, without getting too hung up here.  Some covens still call themselves 'Dianic Wiccan', even if they are not technically 'Wiccan' according to BTW.

I'm not a Dianic but I have encountered this issue with events.  I participated in a women's retreat for years but it was only open to 'natural-born' women, and said so on the invitation.  I posed the question to the organizers, why weren't transgendered women allowed in?  

I was told it was because the women who participated wouldn't be comfortable with it, because of many of the women's issues discussed in workshops (Women's Mysteries).  I asked if we could put it to a vote, and one year I was allowed to take that vote.  

I was the only woman in favor, the rest were against it.  Even if it was post-op, it was for the same reason.  Women wouldn't feel comfortable among women that were not natural born.  Issues like child birth, menstruation, and abuse were touchy subjects during the retreats.  

Initially, I was under the impression that it was a retreat for women that had a focus on Spirituality, as time went on I came to learn that it also acted as arm-chair therapy to women in need.

Some of the women that attended the retreat were Dianic Wiccans.  In discussing it, there was a huge focus placed on imbalance of polarities.  When I asked why excluding men in their religion/covens wasn't considered an imbalance of natural 'polarities', I got bucket responses.  A lot of jargon about the Goddess and being 'daughters' of the Goddess.  When I probed further regarding Transgendered women also being 'daughters' of the Goddess, it was a bias based on being born biologically one gender, but transformation to another.  Even in the face of scientific data, they weren't having it.

As a volunteer for the event, it pained me to turn away Transgendered folks from participation.

Eventually, I stopped participating myself.

A lot of these themes are apparent in Dianic Wiccan covens.  I've met a number of people over the years that either ran covens or participated in them.  There also seemed to be a discrimination against homosexual males, as imbalanced.  Especially effeminate males that wanted to participate in Dianic covens.

I would think there would be at least one coven that welcomed Transgendered women, even if only to learn the weird ways of women.  I haven't found one yet.

Thanks for the feedback, Sin Jones.  You are very knowledgeable. :)

By the way, do you happen to live in the Berkeley area of California?  I know that the CAYA Coven changed its requirements for its Grove of Artemis and Grove of Hekate to simply be "self-identified women" and not women-born-women 

FYI, Caya Coven has exited the Dianic Tradition in favor of creating a modified version called Pan Dianic where transgendered folk are included. 

You're right, I even referenced that in my original post :P

mea culpa!

No, I live in Hampton Roads Virginia..

What do you Dianic Wiccans think about this?  Should transgender women be allowed in?  Should men be allowed?  Should there be separate traditions that focus solely on the Goddess and solely on the God?

I already answered this but I'm gonna do it again! lol.

Dianic wiccans as far as I know believe that what makes a woman is the female genitalia they were born with. 

Transgender women should be allowed in, but like I said before, they shouldn't go anywhere they are not wanted.  And there are Dianic covens that do allow trans women in them, but the main branch does not.

As far as I understand Wicca, the most important thing that they believe in is the duality of the divine, male and female, day and night, balance is absolutely necessary.

BTW good on yah for exploring and being accepting of other's faiths. ;)

Thanks, Airo.

I just learned that people follow certain paths for a reason and that reason is very important to them as following my path is important for me.

As a Dianic Witch within the Budapest Tradition (of which there are at least two and more are being developed) I support the division of certain rituals for bio-women (hence Women's blood mysteries), and individuals who identify as women. Bio women have life long experiences as females in a female body that only females can have. Transgendered people have their own unique experiences and no doubt, mysteries. Everyone should be valued for who they are and should follow a path that reflects their experiences.  I was at Pantheacon last year where our ONE woman-only ritual was protested by both conference attendees AND P-con staff. That has never happened before in the history of P-con. As a participant in that ritual I can tell you it felt highly threatening and was an attempt to intimidate, regardless of what the instigators stated. I am sad that as a woman, I am attacked for just trying to celebrate my own blood mysteries with others who share the same experience. And I have to wonder whether the fact that we are women makes it easier to deny us our own space. I doubt that anyone would suggest that a gathering of any other oppressed group be forced to open their sacred rituals to outsiders. Not only does this make it impossible for us to experience our ritual, it is unfulfilling for anyone who does not share the experience of blood mysteries as a woman. I'm certainly not trying to be hateful. I have no hatred toward transgender individuals, but some have put so much energy into trying to vilify Dianics, that little energy has been put into developing traditions and experiences that would truely reflect their experiences. Just my own two cents. I know many will disagree with me.  FYI, if anyone is going to P-con this year, Ruth Barrett and Melissa will be holding a workshop on this issue.

Oh, and as to the reply by Serigahn, I beg to differ that we are not Wiccan. My particular tradition was developed initially by Z, but was "grown" or transformed by Ruth Barrett into a more Wiccan and less folk tradition. We may not invoke the God into our rituals, but we acknowledge his presence as we acknowledge and welcome the men/males in our lives. The Dianic groups that are co-gender are from the McFarland tradition that is "goddess only" but co gender. They are different from my tradition in that they are not feminist and do not celebrate Women's Mysteries.  More Dianic off shoots are developing now that may include the God, but still focus primarily on the Goddess. 

I think I can see what you're saying.  Women who are truly female experience the Women's Mysteries which are sacred to them, however, due to the harsh history and experiences women have faced they have rarely experienced them in peace and by themselves... is that what you mean?  Please correct me if I misinterpreted.

And by Melissa, do you mean this woman who's sitting next to Ruth in this video?  

Yes. We've fought so hard for so many years to have our own space, our own mysteries, our safety. Unfortunately, today these spaces are very nearly completely gone due to the allegation that we are "transphobic" or "'discriminating" when nothing could be further from the truth.  I've never seen Melissa. I know she was instrumental into getting a dialogue going about Dianic tradition and Transgendered individuals with Ruth while at Circle Sanctuary.


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