BAD Pagans

Hope everyone's 2009 is off to a fine start.

I was having a discussion today with some community elders about bad pagans. Let me be more specific here, just so I am clear, I don't mean ones who have only read one book and think they know it all.

I mean the 50 year old men who sneak off in the woods with underage girls, the pagans who proudly display hash pipes and smoke dope in "public" or "open" ritual, the ones who abuse their spouses, the ones that steal, the ones that are stalkers and predators.

It was observed that in an attempt to honor everyone's path, and not seem judgmental, we have gotten to the point where there is no "bad" there is only "not good"

It was argued that due to this lack of standing up and calling things "bad" or "wrong" we have gotten to the point where we are very much like the Catholic church in how it handled pedophiles; we will kick them out of our group, but we won't really take a stand, or try to prevent them from joining other groups. And it is this lack of accountability that allows the same people to go into group after group and create divisions that cannot be repaired, wen we could easily network and prevent such things from happening.

I would like to know how all of you feel about this topic and why.

Edit: Alan Heartsong has rightly pointed out that we may be failing to warn people of other denominations of paganism due to fragmentation. Does this factor in to how people "get away" with bad behavior?

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by AlanHeartsong on January 1, 2009 at 4:39pm: Really? People don't talk to each other about the bad things others do in their community? And here I thought gossip networks worked faster than newsletters.

The local Traditional Wiccan community Elders talk to each other about stuff that goes on with some regularity, to make sure that after kicking someone out of a group everyone knows why.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by James "TwoSnakes" Stovall on January 1, 2009 at 4:41pm: I am glad to hear this. I was worried it wasn't as common as I thought it was. You are in California right? Does the same thing happen outside of the Wiccan pagans?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by AlanHeartsong on January 1, 2009 at 5:04pm: Yep, I'm in California. I haven't had any involvement with the local pagan community for quite some time, so I can't give you any recent news. When I was a youngster (20 years ago) and I was hanging out with the folks in the San Francisco area, there was quite a bit of free communication going on about the good and the bad in the community.

People had no qualms about confronting someone who was doing something generally viewed as morally wrong or questionable, and the information went from group to group like wildfire. (This was before the Internet, so lots of phone calls.); ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Raven Woman on January 1, 2009 at 4:50pm: i believe all pedophiles should be tortured then disemboweled. They should have no rights what so ever.
Same goes for spousal abuse.
Do more than just kick em out of some group. Call the cops.

As for pot smoking. I dont do it. But i also dont veiw it as a harmful drug. If someone what to smoke a plant or eat some wacky mushrooms, thats fine. They have been apart of ritual work for thousands of years.
Actually it is something that is on my list of things to due before i die. I want to sit in a smoke filled hut with my tribe elders, eat some peode (sp ) and have a vision.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by James "TwoSnakes" Stovall on January 1, 2009 at 4:58pm: I don't blame it as a harmful dug, but at the same time, I don't think it has a place in public rituals, and really wish I would stop finding pagan shops that sell hash pipes. Not exactly the impression I want to give to the non pagan world.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Raven Woman on January 1, 2009 at 7:58pm: Ive seen those too. But I dont really think they are true pagan shops. They just really cater to high schoolers are college students who are what to be cool and have 'occult" objects so they can say " look at me--im an individual, just like everyone else"; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Edanna the Willow Witch on January 2, 2009 at 2:12am: As a college pagan, I take offense to that statement. Not all of us are like that. I wasn't like that in middle school, I wasn't like that in high school, I'm not like that now.

Could you define for me a "true pagan shop"? Some paths use mind-altering substances as a way to find insight or get closer to their gods, so shouldn't a "true pagan shop" sell paraphenalia for said substances?

Edanna; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by James "TwoSnakes" Stovall on January 2, 2009 at 5:18am: Are the substances legal?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by TheGratefulNed on January 2, 2009 at 9:03am: Why does that matter? That's something for the individual practitioner to consider and evaluate, not the shop.

Are there crazies out there that have killed people because "God told them to"? Yes. Does that mean shops shouldn't be allowed to sell the Christian Bible? No.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by TheGratefulNed on January 2, 2009 at 9:01am: Well said Edanna!; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by TheGratefulNed on January 2, 2009 at 9:06am: What kind of public rituals were these? Were they on public grounds or ones held on private property to which the pagan community at large was invited? Did all of the people there claim to ascribe to the same flavor/variety/path/interpretation of paganism?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Arachneh on January 1, 2009 at 4:40pm: It was observed that in an attempt to honor everyone's path, and not seem judgmental, we have gotten to the point where there is no "bad" there is only "not good"

Second AlanHeartsong's assertion above.

This is one of the reasons (among many others) that BTW covens tend to retain councils of elders and stay in touch with one another. There is such a thing as "transgression" and "discipline" in the Craft, and those distinctions exist for very good reasons.

I think in our rush to be "accepting" we forget that some things are "unacceptable" by their nature, and it's okay for us to exercise our judgment in making those determinations.; ▶ Reply to This