BAD Pagans

Hope everyone's 2009 is off to a fine start.

I was having a discussion today with some community elders about bad pagans. Let me be more specific here, just so I am clear, I don't mean ones who have only read one book and think they know it all.

I mean the 50 year old men who sneak off in the woods with underage girls, the pagans who proudly display hash pipes and smoke dope in "public" or "open" ritual, the ones who abuse their spouses, the ones that steal, the ones that are stalkers and predators.

It was observed that in an attempt to honor everyone's path, and not seem judgmental, we have gotten to the point where there is no "bad" there is only "not good"

It was argued that due to this lack of standing up and calling things "bad" or "wrong" we have gotten to the point where we are very much like the Catholic church in how it handled pedophiles; we will kick them out of our group, but we won't really take a stand, or try to prevent them from joining other groups. And it is this lack of accountability that allows the same people to go into group after group and create divisions that cannot be repaired, wen we could easily network and prevent such things from happening.

I would like to know how all of you feel about this topic and why.

Edit: Alan Heartsong has rightly pointed out that we may be failing to warn people of other denominations of paganism due to fragmentation. Does this factor in to how people "get away" with bad behavior?

▶ Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by TheGratefulNed on January 2, 2009 at 4:34pm: I dislike pot pipes in a pagan shop simply because they are accessories to an illegal activity under most circumstance

I disagree on that, they are accessories which may be used for an illegal activity and maybe they even are 99.9% of the time. However, the pipes themselves, in most places in the U.S., are not illegal until they've actually been used for something illegal or they've been advertised as being for something illegal. Technically, the pipe is used for smoking, what you choose to put in the pipe is what leads to legal issues. I do know a couple of people who prefer to smoke their tobacco out of glass pipes, these people also happen to smoke marijuana out of similar pipes, but the fact remains that they use these "pot pipes" legally.

Are you arguing Ned that unless you are the one who is legally liable it's anything goes?

I'm certainly not saying anything goes, rather pointing out to whom it should fall to police such activities or decide not to.

Also, not being a Wiccan or part of any coven, circle, group, etc. and never having attended such a thing, I don't know exactly what you mean by a "public" or "open" ritual. Open to me connotes that it's not limited to one coven, circle, path, tradition or pantheon. It was on that interpretation that I feel, if people are responsibly using something which they view as a sacrament or tool in their faith then they should have as much right to do so as someone else has to walk in a circle or light candles or "call the corners" or whatever else goes on at such places. If you simply mean that it is a ritual that is open to public observation but not public participation (or limited to a specific tradition, etc.) then whoever is organizing or "in charge" should be taking the initiative to distance the ritual from any public observers who are smoking by addressing them directly.

Really, the issue I have isn't with whether or not you approve of, tolerate or condemn marijuana use as a viable spiritual aid, it's with marijuana use being grouped in with the other crimes like pedophilia, spousal abuse and theft.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by James "TwoSnakes" Stovall on January 2, 2009 at 4:54pm: So, if I substituted another drug in the same statement, you would have been OK with it?

Thank you for a laugh out loud moment though. The "these people also happen to smoke marijuana out of similar pipes" might be the funniest thing I have heard all week!; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by TheGratefulNed on January 2, 2009 at 5:05pm: Crack, cocaine, heroin, meth, yeah I'd have been comfortable with those being included.

Mushrooms, peyote, LSD, etc. would depend on whether the use was responsible or not and again what you mean by "public" or "open" rituals.

Glad I could make you smile. :-); ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by James "TwoSnakes" Stovall on January 2, 2009 at 5:50pm: I will use an example that I was at recently. An event advertised on several yahoo groups and some fliers, open to people of any tradition, and even non pagans, a priest and priestess of one tradition (British traditional) conducting the family friendly ritual in the early afternoon, a more eclectic priest and priestess conducting an "elder" ritual later in the evening where minors were excluded, but any adult of any trad, and even non pagans could participate. Ones like this have been held on both public and private property.

As you can see there are a lot of variables to consider, including the fact that any time a member of any other church, a neighbor, or law enforcement could join and be welcome.

Under that circumstance it would still be OK to hide behind the shed and light up or drop acid? And would it in your opinion be within the rights of not the only the hosts but the guests/visitors to ask the person to be removed/report them for criminal activity/seek to make sure that other circles know that this individual uses substances in their practices even in settings where it may not be appropriate?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Arachneh on January 2, 2009 at 6:25pm: This may sound fascist to some, but given the legal issues surrounding controlled substances in the US, common sense would seem to prescribe the following: If you're invited to someone else's ritual, unless specifically advised otherwise, leave the weed, etc. at home. "Someone else's ritual" here also means an open-invitation ritual that you are attending, but neither running nor sponsoring.

There may be children present. There may be law enforcement present and participating. If on public property, the gathering may be permitted, and you may be putting the permit holders at risk. If on private property, you may be putting the owners at risk.

Let common sense and common courtesy prevail. If you must use controlled substances in "open" group ritual, do the brave thing and sponsor it yourself.

Permalink Reply by Celticlogos on January 3, 2009 at 12:44pm: a proof if you will:

breaking the law = criminal
pedophile = breaking the law
drug abuser = breaking the law
therefore
pedophile = criminal
drug abuser = criminal
we can create the formula
(pedophile)(Criminal) = (Drug Abuser)(Criminal)
and removing the redundancies
pedophile = drug abuser

you may not think they should be grouped, but they are both criminals and therefore 0 tolerance.

and before anyone squawks "OH THEY AREN'T THE SAME THING' = means hold the same value (in this case they both hold the value criminal) if I were to use == that would be saying they are the exact same thing(i know not all drug abusers are pedos and not all pedos are drug users....); ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Celticlogos on January 2, 2009 at 7:01pm: Violating the law, is still violating the law.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Spiralle on January 2, 2009 at 10:03am: I agree that "Bad" Pagans should be cast out, and that the word should be spread about them. However, I also know from experience that bullies (for lack of a better word) in the Pagan community are notorious for spreading untrue rumours in their efforts to get other people cast out. Often their efforts pay off, if they make the right accusation.

For example, someone whom I used to know in the local community was accused of sexually abusing his daughter. He didn't have a daughter, or in fact any children, stepchildren, or nieces or nephews (he was an only child). I never even saw him speak to a child in the whole 18 months that I knew him, and I for one did not believe the rumours, but many people did.

Something I deliberately don't mention on my website is that Pagan bullies often accuse their targets of sex crimes against children, knowing that people will react vicerally and with very little evidence to support the allegations. A target can go from being personally popular to a pariah in a matter of days, simply because people assume guilt in such cases, or rationalize that it's better to be safe than sorry.

Please understand that I am in no way saying that sexual abuse of anyone is okay - it's not, and anyone guilty of it should be cast out.

Having said that, I get a lot of e-mails from people who have been targeted by bullies, and a disturbing number of them have been accused of sexual crimes within their Pagan communities. I realize that some of them may well be guilty, but let's think about those who have been unfairly accused for a moment, shall we?

As I said before, people react vicerally to accusations of sexual abuse, especially of children. In the case of my former acquaintance, when he became aware of the gossip he did his best to clear his name, even threatening to sue those he believed started the rumour. However, his legal counsel essentially told him that even if he managed to win a lawsuit, it would only fuel the fire. He left the community (and Paganism) in disgust, and further accusations have been made against others, by the same people as before. I have no idea if they are guilty or not, but I believe everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt if a rumour is all one has to go on. By all means, keep an eye on the person and don't leave them alone with children until you know them a lot better, but don't assume they must be guilty either.

Nameste; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by James "TwoSnakes" Stovall on January 2, 2009 at 5:57pm: A fair point.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Seph on January 3, 2009 at 8:10pm: That is true in other situations too, besides paganism. If you want to throw a red flag up, just say molestation and it will get attention quickly. Now, I do not condone any type of sexual abuse, whether it is of a child or an adult. But unfortunately, it sometimes becomes hard to tell who the true victums are are who are crying "wolf."

My own sister is the kind that everytime she becomes enraged with someone, especially males that she has been "friendly" with, she cries fouls and says they forced themselves on her. She has been doing this since around '98. Everytime, she was intimate with a boy, she would have my grandmother take her to the ER claiming she was assulted. She told DCFS that my brother "forced himself on her." The only thing that ultimatly saved my brother was me driving back home (9 hours straight) to bring the tape of my sister demanding money for an abortion (cause she thought she was preganant) from me, admitting that it was possibally by the neighbor boy across the street who got her "knocked up" or else she would hurt our bother. Before that entire incident, she tried to claim our father molested us and tried to get me to lie to get him in trouble cause he wouldn't let her drink and do drugs in his house. My father was very physically abusive, and to this day Mentally and Emotionally abusive, but he Never molested any of us. I have watched my sister and several other girls, in our area, of the same age, as my sis, destroy men's lives all because they called there bluff.

If a person, is proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, then yes, they should be banned permenantly from a group and turned over to the authorities on a silver platter. But.....and this is where I am going to upset people......if it is constantly the same person, group of people, crying wolf, everytime...using the same or similair story. ...then it is the accussors that should be investigated and banned for their behaviour.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Fenyx on January 2, 2009 at 10:11am: we haven't had any pedophiles (that I know of) in our community BUT we did have a con artist that took a lot of money from us new people in paganism... I mean, he was willing to teach us for a price and I didn't really know better... come to find out that person had done the same thing in MULTIPLE communities and goes by about 7 different eke names (his most recent was firwik... his real name is Phillip). anywho, he pretty much hops from town to town and takes money til they are onto his game then leaves. the material he has is someone elses that he stole and put his name on and well... he was kicked out of our community and banned from circle. No one knows where he is now, but he goes by multiple names and is a very charming older man...

so with that said, I agree that there needs to be some sort of network where we can all communicate on the attitudes and actions that should be acceptable and those that shouldn't. I live by the Wiccan Rede, and I honor all things on the earth. I am a naturalist of sorts (I don't take pharmaceuticals if I can help it and I am also a vegetarian). I look at life as a miracle and a blessing that the gods have given me the chance to come back, yet again, to learn another lesson... and I do not take kindly to people who disrespect my code or mock it or take the code as their facade, for show, and to make themselves look good. I've been interested in the Wiccan way of life since April 20th, 2007 and I don't know everything about the traditions of Wicca, but I do know that I want to live a powerful and inspiring life that other people can learn from. We don't have a group of Elders here, but we do have older Pagans who help when they are asked for it and we all keep an honest communication system. I just hope that one day the Pagan world can become as networked as the Christian community... where we can openly and freely become the positive beings that we the witches/pagans/heathens were meant to be. And may the Lord and Lady bless those who should be blessed and help those who don't realize their negative impact on the world.

Fenyx; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by runicluvsme on January 2, 2009 at 10:30am: Yes I do believe this factors into how people get away with bad behavior.

We can't do anything as a pagan community if we know nothing about what is going on. If someone knows somethng about someone you can't assume we all know, pass it along. So if you know something tell us after all the elders are suppose to be there to just this.; ▶ Reply to This