Entitlement
OK, so something that was mentioned in the "Plastic Shaman" topic set me off, and I needed to do this as a separate entry... I'd like to see what people think, frankly, and see where we go wrong.
Those of us who are living in areas of modern "Western" culture have a problem... its called Entitlement. Entitlement is the notion that all things are open and free, and all you have to do is ask to be handed information because its all supposed to be open and free, right?
In magickal areas, I see people constantly saying things like "Spirit is free!" and "Spirit will call to whoever it will", and to be honest, I see them as a part of the same entitlement problem. Yes; I agree that spirit is free and that all sentient beings have the innate right to reach out to spirituality. That does NOT AT ALL equate to the practices, words, rituals, and secrets... those are made by people, NOT GOD, and are transmitted BY PEOPLE. You have the right to your spirituality... but if mine is oathbound or a tradition secret, you have no rights whatsoever.
What i -absolutely, utterly- disagree with is that this somehow equates to anyone having the rights to my hard work because they say "Spirit is for all". I did this work... its mine, and its my practice; that means no, you dont have the right to it unless you're willing to do the work as I set forth... if I take on a student, as long as they're willing to do the work, they can earn the information, but I am NOT simply going to hand it off with only a smile.
What I dont understand is where people assume that cultural and traditional secrets are any different... with the First Nations people, many of them have made it clear that access to their information follows traditional guidelines; that means its taught to their people. IE, if you want the traditions, you have to be one of their people... which can be done through adoption, frequently involving a move and some major life changes, but its the way in. Usually the ONLY way in.
BTW Wicca is the same; there are ways in... and once in, you have access.
Vodou is the same... there are ways in, and once in, you have access.
Australian Aboriginal Songweaving is the same... there are ways in, and once in, you have access.
The problem arises when people read a book and call themselves a traditional worker, or when people start selling ceremony that they do not possess the right to. ESPECIALLY with Native ceremony, it is NEVER for sale. NEVER. Its a tighter stricture than the one stating Traditional Craft is not for sale. (Please note the inclusion of the capitol T... I mean BTW, regular witches are NOT bound by that unless they CHOOSE to be, and that's not the argument here)
Seriously, check out NewAgeFraud.org; sign up, and participate in the forums. Would it surprise you that there are some people HERE that the native tribes have publically called fakes and plastic shamans? There are a few. Read the forums before you comment here on your idea of native ceremony... I'd like discussions with people who are genuinely informed. (Castaneda and Browne have both been called out as 100% fake by the First Nations people, just so ya know... as are most "teachers" of native spirituality)
There are set ways the traditions are handed down... and part of our cultures issues with Entitlement come in when -we- say "Oh yeah I respect them... but Im gonna do it anyway". We earn their hatred on a daily basis.
Just like my trad (Haitian Vodou) CANNOT be combined with another (Im welcome to practice whatever I want, but the Lwa MUST be saluted in their fashion on their time.. ie Im forbidden to call them up in a wiccan circle kind of thing)to try combining First Nations traditions with others is just plain disrespectful and culture-vulturing. They say it loudest... and it bothers me that the people who say they respect them are the very ones who block their ears and still do whatever they want.
Its disrespect, plain and simple... we are Entitled to NOTHING.
Thoughts?
Those of us who are living in areas of modern "Western" culture have a problem... its called Entitlement. Entitlement is the notion that all things are open and free, and all you have to do is ask to be handed information because its all supposed to be open and free, right?
In magickal areas, I see people constantly saying things like "Spirit is free!" and "Spirit will call to whoever it will", and to be honest, I see them as a part of the same entitlement problem. Yes; I agree that spirit is free and that all sentient beings have the innate right to reach out to spirituality. That does NOT AT ALL equate to the practices, words, rituals, and secrets... those are made by people, NOT GOD, and are transmitted BY PEOPLE. You have the right to your spirituality... but if mine is oathbound or a tradition secret, you have no rights whatsoever.
What i -absolutely, utterly- disagree with is that this somehow equates to anyone having the rights to my hard work because they say "Spirit is for all". I did this work... its mine, and its my practice; that means no, you dont have the right to it unless you're willing to do the work as I set forth... if I take on a student, as long as they're willing to do the work, they can earn the information, but I am NOT simply going to hand it off with only a smile.
What I dont understand is where people assume that cultural and traditional secrets are any different... with the First Nations people, many of them have made it clear that access to their information follows traditional guidelines; that means its taught to their people. IE, if you want the traditions, you have to be one of their people... which can be done through adoption, frequently involving a move and some major life changes, but its the way in. Usually the ONLY way in.
BTW Wicca is the same; there are ways in... and once in, you have access.
Vodou is the same... there are ways in, and once in, you have access.
Australian Aboriginal Songweaving is the same... there are ways in, and once in, you have access.
The problem arises when people read a book and call themselves a traditional worker, or when people start selling ceremony that they do not possess the right to. ESPECIALLY with Native ceremony, it is NEVER for sale. NEVER. Its a tighter stricture than the one stating Traditional Craft is not for sale. (Please note the inclusion of the capitol T... I mean BTW, regular witches are NOT bound by that unless they CHOOSE to be, and that's not the argument here)
Seriously, check out NewAgeFraud.org; sign up, and participate in the forums. Would it surprise you that there are some people HERE that the native tribes have publically called fakes and plastic shamans? There are a few. Read the forums before you comment here on your idea of native ceremony... I'd like discussions with people who are genuinely informed. (Castaneda and Browne have both been called out as 100% fake by the First Nations people, just so ya know... as are most "teachers" of native spirituality)
There are set ways the traditions are handed down... and part of our cultures issues with Entitlement come in when -we- say "Oh yeah I respect them... but Im gonna do it anyway". We earn their hatred on a daily basis.
Just like my trad (Haitian Vodou) CANNOT be combined with another (Im welcome to practice whatever I want, but the Lwa MUST be saluted in their fashion on their time.. ie Im forbidden to call them up in a wiccan circle kind of thing)to try combining First Nations traditions with others is just plain disrespectful and culture-vulturing. They say it loudest... and it bothers me that the people who say they respect them are the very ones who block their ears and still do whatever they want.
Its disrespect, plain and simple... we are Entitled to NOTHING.
Thoughts?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Moonsmith on
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"I find it sadistically entertaining that some of these folks will pitch a fit because their spiritual ceremonies are not being performed properly by non-Indians while at the same time refusing to share the proper way to do them out of bias against non-Indians learning the proper way – am I the only one to see the connection here. What are they going to do run about and arrest any one who might be doing a rain dance."
What I find interesting are the ones who initially create the unrest are those who don't have the training anyway and are a bit on the emotionally extreme side. These folks rally others to their cause and eventually you wind up with declarations like the Lakota War Decree.
But what are they doing about it? Well, they aren't just sitting around. Some intrepid souls are disturbing various rituals, confiscating sacred tools, breaking things and in general being a nuisance. Granted these are extremists who are doing this, and once over the initial shock of having their ritual or ceremony trounced by these individuals, many folks who are worth their salt, either carry on or reschedule their events. Still others who are more of a plastic nature take umbrage and cry 'foul'!
In NA circles, there is etiquette for disagreeing with any particular ceremony, and it does not involve the desecration of the ceremony. A traditionally trained person has several choices and always acts out of respect. At least to the energies involved, if not to the actual people.
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Permalink Reply by Houngan Matt on -
Not to mention they DONT refuse to teach.... as Ive been saying, there's a proper and traditional way in. If YOU refuse to go in the way the tradition asks... well, that's not them refusing, is it?
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Permalink Reply by mead on -
I do appreciate your clarification and I miss quotes that make it easier for folks to figure out what I am responding to.
I will admit I am an opinioanted bitch in any discussion but I am always open to correction should I misread some thing.
What part of "non-indian" in that war declaration means any one who ask in the right way willl be taught and allowed to practie Lokata cermonies.
For my own clarification = I am not complaining about them prohibitng people like me from being able to practice thier ceromoneis. I am bitching about the blanket accusation aimed at "new ager" and "pagans" as the cause for this offense. I do not appreciate being accused of being greedy simply because I idenify as new age pagan, I espeically have a problem, with being accused of being "plastic" because I do not practice "shaminism" like they do. I furhter more take acceptin to failure to accept personal responsiblity in the entire matter - IF thier cermoneis were not secret then every one woudl know the difference beween a real indian sweat lodge and a fake one ,
My rant was about principles not lack of access to the ceremonies themselves. I mention secrecy because it is part of the problem – and making a HUGE deal about the secrecy will only serve to compound the problem. I based my response on the fact that these points have been missed by both the first nations people and the new age pagans – meaning no one will ever know the solution because they have yet to figure out the problem -
Some First Nation people have posted list on the internet out lining what a real holy man will not do and this is helpful – I read it early in my research and heeded it’s warnings. I learned I am not privileged to that information so I quit looking for it – no problem
The sense of entitlement I have a problem with first and foremost is the generalization that just because people do not practice shamanism the same manner the first nations do then we are plastic – who in the hell are they to pass such judgments upon my spiritual practices or any one else for that matter. They are qualified to determine weather or not a sweat lodge or a ceremony is genuine to their tribal spiritual practices but they are NOT entitled to pass judgment upon of MY spiritual depth That is the first and by far the largest sense of entitlement I have a problem with.
My second problem is perspective clusterfuck
It isn’t the genuine new age pagans who are passing off counterfeit Indian ceremonies it is scam artist pretending to be a genuine new age pagan. We as pagans are the damn targets of these scams not the perpetrator –New age pagans are the innocent ones who think the Indians got some thing of value going on , we are the ones being taken to the cleaners by these scam artist pretending to have secret knowledge of Indian spiritual ceremonies and now we are being accused by the Indians based solely on our category of “new age pagan” and “non-Indian” status. – what a load of shit
My third and final problem
Most of the people here act as if they are supposed to tolerate being insulted out of a sense of guilt . . Truly spiritual pagans did not commit the crimes they were being victims of scam artist , If we would quit acting like we deserve abuse because we are white maybe we would realize we are not guilty Maybe could be more effective in stopping these scam artist as they are enemies to both the pagans and the First Nations .
Those pagan people didn’t go to that week-end retreat because they are plastic they went there because they did not know any better – They did not know any better because the real thing is a fucking secret. It wasn’t Indians who lost their lives it wasn’t Christians it was new age pagans – who may not be much different than some of us in discussion {except they had $9000.00 to spend on a week-end retreat} The people who died acted in ignorance via lacking the truth which by the way has nothing to do with my emotions or their spiritual depth
Now hopefully that clarifies my points of view
Moonsmith thank you for your answer and I agree with you about the respect
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Permalink Reply by By the Beat of My Own Drum on -
@mead.....absolutely beautiful....rant on!
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Permalink Reply by Ryver on -
It seems to me this is just another example of the 'traditional vs. eclectic' arguement. Both sides certainly have their points, but personally, I really just don't care.
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I don't think so, really. I think basically in a nutshell that all he is saying is that no matter what your path may be, lots of work is going to be involved, so just accept that, and integrate the training and do not mis represent it.
There is that uphill battle I see many times when a person who is of the dominant culture tries to approach a traditionally trained native for teaching, healing or guidance. It is an unwritten, tacit attitude that just about everyone raised within the dominant culture will have to one degree or another. One must work through that first before one can expect to be able to approach and be welcome into a traditional lineage.
There are processes in place (in most cases, at least) to work through this, but they are set and operated by the lineage and/or system one is wanting to learn.
There is nothing at all wrong or slight about following an eclectic route. I have been eclectic, indeed I may still be viewed that way by others because of my broad interests. But some people would really like traditional and eclectic to be the same thing. This is where the lines of entitlement blur.
But where eclectic boundaries are more malleable, traditional boundaries must remain more rigid.
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Permalink Reply by Houngan Matt on
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Ryver: in a way it is, and in a way its not.... that said, why would you feel the need to declare that you dont care? Its kinda a "I dont want to participate in this conversation but I feel you all need to know that" when simple silence would have been good enough.
Ecclectic is NOT de-valued; its valid. OK, there, I said it.
Difference is Ecclectic -anything- doesnt have a blanket right to everything; it can take what it has access to, but should also learn to respect when Traditions say they wont hand out anything to non-members. Neither is "Better", but some people have secrets. There's no problem there... my problem kicks in when entitlement rears its ugly head, either through insisting people have rights to information that isnt theirs, or by slamming the people who dare to say "No, Im not going to give that to you."
That's all.
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Permalink Reply by Ryver on
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I really don't like it when people try to put words in my mouth. If I'd meant, "I dont want to participate in this conversation but I feel you all need to know that", that is exactly what I would have said. I said what I meant and meant what I said.
You want to know why I posted? Gee, this is a public forum. I gave my opinion. I really don't care for the whole 'traditional vs. eclectic' arguement. Both sides have their points and ALL paths take work. I never challenged that. I certainly could have said more but it was my choice not to. You see, I'm rather busy this month and I just stop in every now and again for a few minutes to check some of the posts.
Seriously, if you don't like what I have to say, then don't read it. I'm pretty used to having my posts ignored, it's really not a big deal.
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Permalink Reply by Brecia Veonne Bloom on -
I completely agree. This needed to be said.
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Permalink Reply by Platypus Moon on -
Sadly it is not only this way with traditions, for some reason alot (not all) of people expect most things handed down to them with no work done on their part whatsoever, i don't know what it's like in other countries but in Australia there seems to be alot of gimme gimme gimme's or if you don't i'll just steal it kind of people around, sigh..
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Permalink Reply by Houngan Matt on
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Platypus, its just the same here in the US; hence the Entitlement title... people think you owe them just because they're alive. Its kinda tacky.
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It seems to me to be an aspect of the dominant western cultural ideal. I say this because I also see native peoples fall victim to it, especially if they are 'urban' raised. I have also heard tales of this in some of the indigenous peoples of Australia as well.
People who self limit themselves because they are not willing to let go enough of the Western investments they have inadvertently acquired and so they limit themselves to their own native teachings.
This happens a lot in America too. The whole history of AIM is rife with it. Some of their members have been seen as very radical and extreme by more traditionally trained peoples.
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