Possession in a Pagan or Heathen Context
I'm sure at this point it is no secret that I am a seviteur of the Lwa. The phenomenon of being "ridden", "mounted", or (in horribly imprecise English parlance) "possessed" by the spirits is, without doubt, a defining feature of Vodou and many of the Afro-Caribbean Traditions.
I have also been a Pagan for over a decade, and find Paganism in my own life very complementary to Vodou. For me Vodou is a way of life relating to healthy and strong self, healthy and strong community relations, and healthy and strong connection with the spirits. Paganism, on the other hand, more strongly emphasizes harmony with the cyclical rhythms of nature, the seasons for example. I love pumpkins and trick or treaters at Halloween, bright colors and goodie baskets at Spring Equinox, the Maypole at Beltane, brightly adorned Evergreens and gifts at Yule, etc... It is not that either one entirely lacks what the other one offers, it is merely a matter of where I feel the emphasis and strength of each is placed: Spirit working (Vodou), and Nature Working (Paganism). Others who follow both traditions may disagree, but no matter.
Even before I became a Vodouisant I found references in Norse, Keltic, British/Irish and other "Pagan" or "Heathen" manuscript sources to apparent possessions of worshippers by the spirits of these respective pantheons. I have also found a few groups out there that believed that the "Great Rite" in its literal sexual manifestation should only be performed by individuals possessed by, or at least channeling, the deities involved. So there is some precedent for possession phenomenon in at least some Pagan or Heathen traditions. Yet it would not be unfair to say that this phenomenon, so common and essential a part of Vodou (or Santeria, Palo, or many of the Afro-Caribbean traditions), and evidently having some precedent in the ancient worldl, is virtually absent in Neopaganism and Neoheathenism.
But, it seems, there are some who are trying to bring it back. Consider this example brought to my attention not long ago (and which admits direct inspiration from the Afro-Caribbean Traditions)... http://www.northernshamanism.org/horsepath.html
I applaud the effort of this group, and any similar groups, to bring possession into a Pagan context. I know I think it would be profound for anyone seeking the Pagan path to be able to commune with the presence, power, and wisdom of a literal "God in the flesh". There are so many ways in which such experiences can contribute to us individually and as traditions. I would be remiss, however, not to warn of the dangers of abuse, even by this specific group, as highlighted by Freya Aswynn on her blog... http://www.aswynn.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&...
To those who might be interested, but wouldn't know what to expect (i.e. how to know whether the so called possession is phony and/or being used to selfish ends), I recommend applying the lessons of the following articles by Mambo Racine...
http://www.rootswithoutend.org/racine125/saysay.html
http://www.haitixchange.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/2632/
http://www.rootswithoutend.org/racine125/goddess.html
While these articles refer to the behaviors of the Lwa, and therefore are not perfectly applicable to possession within a Pagan or Heathen context, however the general guidelines of how to tell the real deal from the phonies, and what the spirits will or will not say or do, or will or will not ask you to do, can easily be applied.
I think this is an exciting development, and I look forward to the day when I can speak to Odin, or Dagda, or Cernunnos through the flesh of one of their devotees, especially as many of these spirits have never chosen to communicate with me directly through visions or however but that does not mean I should not wish to partake of experiences involving them. One thing is for sure... no one who came to such a Pagan or Heathen ritual would leave without the sense of having been witnesses to something profoundly good and powerful.
Does anyone here try to incorporate possession into their Pagan or Heathen traditions? If not, is this something that would interest you? If not, are you at least supportive of the idea, or would you balk at it?
I have also been a Pagan for over a decade, and find Paganism in my own life very complementary to Vodou. For me Vodou is a way of life relating to healthy and strong self, healthy and strong community relations, and healthy and strong connection with the spirits. Paganism, on the other hand, more strongly emphasizes harmony with the cyclical rhythms of nature, the seasons for example. I love pumpkins and trick or treaters at Halloween, bright colors and goodie baskets at Spring Equinox, the Maypole at Beltane, brightly adorned Evergreens and gifts at Yule, etc... It is not that either one entirely lacks what the other one offers, it is merely a matter of where I feel the emphasis and strength of each is placed: Spirit working (Vodou), and Nature Working (Paganism). Others who follow both traditions may disagree, but no matter.
Even before I became a Vodouisant I found references in Norse, Keltic, British/Irish and other "Pagan" or "Heathen" manuscript sources to apparent possessions of worshippers by the spirits of these respective pantheons. I have also found a few groups out there that believed that the "Great Rite" in its literal sexual manifestation should only be performed by individuals possessed by, or at least channeling, the deities involved. So there is some precedent for possession phenomenon in at least some Pagan or Heathen traditions. Yet it would not be unfair to say that this phenomenon, so common and essential a part of Vodou (or Santeria, Palo, or many of the Afro-Caribbean traditions), and evidently having some precedent in the ancient worldl, is virtually absent in Neopaganism and Neoheathenism.
But, it seems, there are some who are trying to bring it back. Consider this example brought to my attention not long ago (and which admits direct inspiration from the Afro-Caribbean Traditions)... http://www.northernshamanism.org/horsepath.html
I applaud the effort of this group, and any similar groups, to bring possession into a Pagan context. I know I think it would be profound for anyone seeking the Pagan path to be able to commune with the presence, power, and wisdom of a literal "God in the flesh". There are so many ways in which such experiences can contribute to us individually and as traditions. I would be remiss, however, not to warn of the dangers of abuse, even by this specific group, as highlighted by Freya Aswynn on her blog... http://www.aswynn.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&...
To those who might be interested, but wouldn't know what to expect (i.e. how to know whether the so called possession is phony and/or being used to selfish ends), I recommend applying the lessons of the following articles by Mambo Racine...
http://www.rootswithoutend.org/racine125/saysay.html
http://www.haitixchange.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/2632/
http://www.rootswithoutend.org/racine125/goddess.html
While these articles refer to the behaviors of the Lwa, and therefore are not perfectly applicable to possession within a Pagan or Heathen context, however the general guidelines of how to tell the real deal from the phonies, and what the spirits will or will not say or do, or will or will not ask you to do, can easily be applied.
I think this is an exciting development, and I look forward to the day when I can speak to Odin, or Dagda, or Cernunnos through the flesh of one of their devotees, especially as many of these spirits have never chosen to communicate with me directly through visions or however but that does not mean I should not wish to partake of experiences involving them. One thing is for sure... no one who came to such a Pagan or Heathen ritual would leave without the sense of having been witnesses to something profoundly good and powerful.
Does anyone here try to incorporate possession into their Pagan or Heathen traditions? If not, is this something that would interest you? If not, are you at least supportive of the idea, or would you balk at it?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Bayou Mage on -
While I agree with you that there are certainly treasures which could be shared with other paths, especially those who have no "unharmed" tradition, I see many other things that we do not have in common (on the surface) that may have a vital influence on this specific feature of your Path.
Undoubtedly true. But it seemed to me that, if some groups were already flirting with the idea, I could not hope that others will not follow suit, and especially given the abuse of the concept by cauldron farms and those associated with it I ought to suggest that anyone interested in this could learn much from more established traditions that do this as part of their practices. Not rip us off and create another new age mishmash, as you say, but in the same way one can learn the principles of rock and roll by inspiration from more established bands without ripping them off, perhaps Pagans interested in spirit possession could learn the principles from someone else and then apply the principles, though not the specific details, to their own traditions with the help and guidance of their own spirits on the matter, and proceed only with the permission and instructions of the spirits combined with proper understanding of what possession entails. Of course, as has been established the "Drawing Down" techniques already represent a form of possession known within Paganism, which already has established rules and procedures that thus need nothing from the african-diasporic traditions to help them out. The cauldron farms group in particular was bastardizing african-diasporic possession into something perverse and unnatural, it seems, and no doubt still are, so if nothing else it was good to warn others of how to know when what they are witnessing is a phony possession, and I'm sure those involved in the "Drawing Down" techniques would agree that there are ways to recognize abuse and deception.
You may call me a reactionary but I'd say before anything is incorporated from other, _established_ Paths any further you'd have to walk the entire walk and have the complete education. And then you can try and crossover.
I agree, which is why I have offered to help others find teachers if they are seeking them. Those involved in the "Drawing Down" techniques may also be able to offer guidance and teaching, since they too have an established tradition of possession. Of course, my own bias is to say that once you go African-Diasporic you will never go back, but at one time in history the Romans sent people to train with the Greek and Etruscan Priesthoods then came back and established their own traditions that endured for millenia under one of the greatest Empires in history. And there is evidence Druidism owed much to training with the indigenous Priesthoods of Britain, from whence both internal and external sources claim Druidism derived. So there is very ancient precedent for the idea of learning another tradition, bringing back what you have learned, and adapting the principles to your own cultural needs. Religions certainly spread widely across all borders in ancient times, yet somehow they seemed to be able to learn from each other without corrupting either the traditions they learned from or the traditions these helped to inspire and make stronger.
Just one example: Nowadays, Heathens still keep arguing whether it is okay to have a "priest" case or not. Some say, yes, a Gothi/Drott is very important, others say, NO, because why would you need a "Priest" if the meaning of Heathenry is to be one with the divine, and one should not in any case make oneself dependant on a priest caste which ends up keeping things to themselves.
Interesting. Yes I have heard of some groups that even just rotate everyone who has been involved a certain amount of time in the role to "lead" ceremonies. I was not sure how far the division went. As to being "one" with the divine, I reckon that what even that means may vary from one tradition to the next. As to our case, possession is the great equalizer; no one who is ridden is any lesser than anyone else ridden; a person there for the first time who gets ridden by Ogou is equal to someone who has been doing this their whole lives who gets ridden by Ogou, though the former may be less likely to be ridden at first or the process of being taken by the spirit may not go as smoothly at first as for someone more experienced and comfortable with "letting go". Because, obviously, it is not in that case about the person, the person is not present, only the spirit, which is the same Ogou in person x as person y as person z. Everything else, however, is generally hierarchical, the more experienced being given roles and responsibilities that may not be given to the less experienced and knowledgeable person. A Vodou house is not a democracy, a commune, or socialism.
No I was replying to your unintended ahem knee-jerk because you thought I was judging you, looking down at you or other frivolities.
My apologies for that. I did not realize that your statements were intended to refer only to within the context of your own tradition and not to ours. As I've said, your path is not mine and what works for us may not work for you. That is as always been you and your spirits.
As for the Celtics, they are worse off somehow than the Norse because for some weird reason Druids didn't even make proper notes when they knew they were going to be extinguished.
Very true. The only ones to keep any sort of real records of extensive volume were the Irish, followed by the Scottish, so it cannot come close to being wholly reconstructed. Just one of those historical odd points. Not that the modern keltic paths are necessarily any less valid, but since they are not complete, it may be that some followers of the keltic pantheon are sometimes drawn to different traditions from other cultures that may share some resemblance with lost traditions from their own cultures. For example, perhaps many keltic followers feel drawn to the Eastern chakras because they bare a certain resemblance to once forgotten teachings about the three inner "cauldrons", and arguably John & Caitlin Matthews might not have rediscovered these lost cauldrons if not for recognizing a certain correspondence with the concept of the chakras, thus an Eastern tradition helping to inspire the rediscovery of a once lost Western tradition even though the two are not the same and should not be combined into some bastardized hybrid under any circumstances.
Maybe I would have a different attitude if I were a Gydia, but then I would seriously consider the full throttle and dedicate a lifetime to incorporate things from one single other Path. Look at 100 years of New Age Madness. It should have taught us something. You don't have to merge to allie, that being said at last.
Very well said. I too dislike this New Age Madness that recklessly mishmashes things from traditions the devotees know little about, like mixing in chakras and prana and reiki without even fully mastering these in their proper context first. The East is probably the biggest victim of this, but Western traditions are quickly being bastardized to catch up with this. And certainly being allies does not require merging, nor should it lead to merging as each tradition guards its own special powers, secrets, treasures, lore, wisdom, etc... that deserve to be kept alive in their own right.
I can't say anything about The Graceful Lady Morrigan but perhaps her choice was because you were settled in the tradition so it was comfortable.
Entirely possible. After all, I did not try to force Her into it, She told me it was going to happen, nor did She ride my right away but waited until I was comfortable with everything, and until I understood from Her everything I needed to know to be prepared for the experience. Apart from Cauldron Farms, one of my sources of inspiration for this thread, a more positive source, was a friend of mine who, when he asked me about my tradition, mentioned that he thought it sounded incredible and would like to be able to open himself to possession with some of his own spirits and perhaps to have such encounters with the spirits that other Pagans honor. I told him that if the spirits wanted this to happen, it certainly could, and there is no reason why a Pagan spirit could not, if it wished, become a "personal Lwa" for the individual, as personal Lwa are common and are not part of any established "pantheon" of Vodou, either, though they may fall into one of the established tribes of spirits (for example, one of Erol's personal ghuedes rode Him at the Fet Ghede recently). I for one could never go back, would only open to possession in an African-Diasporic tradition, unless on its own some segments of Paganism/Heathenism were to evolve these sorts of traditions to a similar degree, which could take many many years of discipline and close cooperation with the spirits to realize if it ever actually happens. Many traditions in the world do not include spirit possession and seem to fulfill the needs of their members, though of course my own bias is to think spirit possession is just one of the most amazing things and that anyone and everyone could benefit from it (not the experience itself, per say, though the experience may leave a residual positive feeling after you regain awareness, but indirectly by benefiting when others are ridden as they likewise benefit when you are ridden in their presence), but each person needs something different at different times in their growth and development.
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Permalink Reply by Houngan Matt on -
Vodouisant are still free; I think a key difference that many,especially within the worldview espoused by the cauldron farm community, is that we are not "god-slaves" nor are we constrained by the lwa who ride us. A Vodou fete's -purpose- is to call the lwa into possession; some will come, not all do; those assembled offer their bodies just by being there; some may choose to take steps ahead of time to -not- be possessed, but the nature of the rites has evolved into encouraging possession for the spirits called in the order in which they are invited.
UNLIKE many other traditions, possession has always been a part of working with the spirits who over time have become lwa; they have learned to respond by giving clear signals that they are the spirit the group was calling, especially when appearing on the inside of a very carefully warded and blessed arena. There has been centuries of constant work with these Names establishing protocols of how to know who they are, how to verify that they are who they say they are, and how to control them... keys and safeguards that modern traditions who are just awakening to possessory ritual DO NOT HAVE.
This is not by its nature a "bad" thing, nor is it a point of "we have and they dont"; its just fact. Its one of the cornerstones around which Vodou is built, and often apparently when it emerges in other traditions seems to have the attitude, yet again, of "civilizing" a piece of what those backwards island people do in an attempt to further sanitize traditions they dont understand... and since they are not clearly understood, they are both feared and looked upon with constant disdain. Its much like the concept of sacrifice; something both heathenry and vodou -do- share, though at times we from within our traditions look upon the mechanics of why we do what we do a little differently. (which is also fine; our traditions, while they share a number of marked similarities, are wholly different and -should not- be made to merge)
Even the most restrictive of arrangements with lwa within vodou, usually found in the marriage lwa where a follower is ritually married to a spirit giving a night a week of celebacy to that spirit in exchange for a whole host of benefits unique to that individual bargain, only requires sleeping alone on a predetermined night in accordance with contracted obligation; none of this god-slave bullshit, not a single iota of "they only allow spirits/gods through that they approve of" and especially not a single whit of inflicted pain upon the practitioner as a form of coercive pleasure-taking.
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Permalink Reply by Maire Hel Wolf on -
of "civilizing" a piece of what those backwards island people do in an attempt to further sanitize traditions they dont understand... and since they are not clearly understood, they are both feared and looked upon with constant disdain
aaaaah! now we are getting closer. I have to add that I consider your Path being quite complex, certainly more complex than mine if I may be crazy enough to compare peas to blueberries just because they both are of round shape and you can eat them.
There are suggestions that an individual had represented a deity during a certain ritual (Tacitus does so). Yet, representation and what you describe is not the same.
god-slave bullshit Actually I think of this as a Christian Church tradition fantasy as described by Ignatius of Loyola or Therese, and in my unhumble opinion it is nothing but a sick outlet of not being able to come to terms with ones carnal existence, hence, claiming to "not having a choice" but to indulge in some wack gone wrong BDSM fantasy. If you look at these people you may find out they share a similar background and this leads us to ummm bigotry.
The person I was speaking about had not been accepted by Caldera.
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Permalink Reply by Houngan Matt on
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Vodou's only more complex in one light; we never really lost components of practice; layers were added as a gloss to bind the many pieces that came together in haiti, but nothing was taken out of the component parts.... many religions were blended and bound with a thin veneer of catholicism, but there are songs for -everything- no matter the activity; everything is blended as to a vodouisant, everything is vodou. The visible world is seen as just the very surface of the mirror in which spirituality moves; once you get beyond the fetes and the mechanics of vodou public ritual, everything becomes beautifully simple in its very complexity; the techniques taught to the priests turn out to apply to -everything- in the outside world, and the practitioner can finally view the mirror as what it really is; just the physical surface of the same philosophy buddhism has been teaching forever. ;)
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Permalink Reply by Maire Hel Wolf on
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Reminds me of an unspoken "once we were innocent", and now the tribes cover their innocence with their own distinctive ornate.
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Permalink Reply by Bayou Mage on
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As always, Matt, very well said.
keys and safeguards that modern traditions who are just awakening to possessory ritual DO NOT HAVE.
Quite right. Obviously the Cauldron Farms people don't have this. Some training in a tradition that does have experience, combined with a willingness to work closely with the spirit and do only so much as it tells you to do and to seek what its own needs might be to facilitate the process and your own needs to ensure that things can be kept safe and under control, might represent steps in the right direction. I did not even know that anyone involved in the neopagan traditions were interesting in possession until learning about cauldron farms, but I reckoned now that the genie was out of the bottle (and no way to put it back in there), perhaps my insight into the african-diasporic traditions could help people who have an interest in this to explore the possibility. I would never, for example, be ridden by a Lwa in a Pagan ceremony; but it would be interesting to see Pagan spirits ride their own devotees, if this was possible. Perhaps in a way cauldron farms may have represented the first sign of a desire of certain spirits to reach out in this manner, even if that particular attempt fell far short of the mark.
(which is also fine; our traditions, while they share a number of marked similarities, are wholly different and -should not- be made to merge)
Very true. Pagan and Heathen traditions should not be merged with Vodou. But each has their strengths, and there is no reason why each cannot contribute to the spiritual growth of a particular individual, providing they are respected within their own domains. In the end the spirit chooses. Morrigan told me She wanted to ride me, I did not tell Her that I wanted Her to; and when She informed me of this it was not so much a choice as simply telling me how it was going to be, and in addition She provided me with information I would need regarding what She would do, what She needed from me, and how to prepare those responsible for ensuring the smoothness and safety of the process what to expect from Her and how to deal with Her if they needed to for any reason. Therefore I would not generally encourage anyone else to seek out a possession in Pagan ritual, but it seems the cat is out of the bag and would be better to provide guidance than to leave my fellow Pagans not knowing what to do or how to react when encountering groups and individuals that may be seeking to bring this practice into Paganism/Heathenism (for example, pointing out how bogus the folks at cauldron farm really are)/
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Permalink Reply by Bayou Mage on
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I would never, for example, be ridden by a Lwa in a Pagan ceremony; but it would be interesting to see Pagan spirits ride their own devotees, if this was possible.
Let me rephrase that... the Lwa would never ride me in a Pagan ceremony. Obviously, it is their choice entirely. But they have made it clear they would not. Even Morrigan made it clear She would not, and She is a Pagan spirit, She wants to ride me but only in the context of a Vodou ceremony. And you can bet it's strange to have a Pagan spirit so gung ho about Vodou, but it's where She felt I belonged and I guess She had no intention of being left out given that She shares with me one of the most intimate relationships a person could have with a spirit and She was not going to get left behind just because She was helping to lead me away from the Paganism I associated with the ancient Irish. Given that the traditions She was associated with died long ago, and any attempt to resurrect these so far has been a distant echo, it is not perhaps surprising She or any Pagan spirit might not necessarily call a person to follow a modern version of that ancient path if it is not where that person would most benefit. And anyhow, spirits follow us across the lines of traditions if they have bonded with us, at least I believe so.
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Permalink Reply by Houngan Matt on
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I wouldnt be surprised at all if the Ghede showed up in Circle wanting to eat the cakes under the altar; That's their wont, and its not up to me to say no (though I'd probably freak a little and ask to be cut out of the circle if I started to feel haloed... you know what I mean, I just dont have the vocab for the feeling other than perhaps a mouchoir tied a little too tightly even when there's no mouchoir there...)
And Simbi seems to really get a kick out of witchcrafts... not that he'll emerge fully, but he makes it known that he's at least in attendance and watching. Sometimes I'll get random ideas that feel like he's put them there as little lessons.
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Permalink Reply by Bayou Mage on
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Interesting stuff, Matt. BTW, check your inbox, I sent you a message...
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Permalink Reply by David Carron on -
"And by the way, if I thought my god would tell me to jump off a bridge, I wouldnt be worshipping him in the first place. I am not that stupid or naive, but thanks for the implication! :)"
Sorry. No need to get huffy. I don't know you nor have any history with you, so I felt compeled to offer the danger "this coffee cup is hot" disclaimer.
You said that you would do "anything" for their God. Folks have done Much Crazier Things for religious reasons.
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Permalink Reply by Herne on -
Sorry. Didn't mean to get huffy. I just take it personally when someone seems to be implying that I am stupid. Naive? Maybe, concerning somethings. But stupid? No.
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Permalink Reply by David Carron on
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The problem is that when one talks about Shamistic traditions the self gets put into the back placing the interests of the Gods, community and/or goals ahead of one's self. This typicaly comes out into physical actions which are sometimes less then healthy ranging from discomfort to exposure/depravation to get to the mental state sought. We do lots of things for religion, much of which ain't good for us.
Heck, I drank from the same horn as 20 different people this weekend. While I know I'm better off spiritually, my cracking throat tells me that physically not so much. :)
I am an a-hole but I try to do so for the right reasons and not to be cruel.
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