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WE were disussing this yesterday.....if it would haven even been possible for a World wide flood to have happened? Would 40 days and 40 nights even have been enough time to cover the highest mountain on Earth,for example? Were there enough materials to build a boat that size? HOW did all those animals get there?? And other thoughts.....NOT only Christians,but other cultures talk about ther flood......THOUGHTS? real or a parrable? example? What?

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It sure seems like they should have noticed it...if they were looking for that.

It would have been obvious.  It wouldn't look like the rest of the strata.  To a geologist it would have leaped out.

can you imagine in your lifetime what they'll find.  Just saying that there is always something new out there.  Hey, we may discover where the UFO's come from too...maybe.

They're not going to find it Pat.  If there was a world-wide flood there would be traces.  Most everything would have been killed.  Plenty of fossils would have been found in a mud layer.  The air pressure of the planet would have changed, weather patterns, the CO2 and O2 mix would have been effected.  There would be traces.  If we can find traces of volcanoes that erupted millions of years ago, where is this Great Flood evidence? 

If  you look at the biblical account of creation it mentions that the spirits looked out over the waters...there was no dry land.  Lots of water on this planet.


OK, but we're not talking about a water planet.  Lass is asking if it's possible there was a world-wide flood that was reported in collective memory.  A water planet does not equal world wide flood. 

I appreciate all your answers ladies,many things to think about and many doors have been opened and at least ajarred......I've been trying to do some independent research too.....

Okay...lets do some facts.  In the upper US there are fossil coral reefs and fossil shell fish and other sea fossils that show multiple heavy duty destructions.  Some would have been before the ice ages and at least at the beginning of when humans could have walked the Northern part of what is the North American Continent.  These fossils are well inland and would have had to be killed off because of a great change in the Earths climate and water location.  The raising of a continent would be much more difficult than a world flood.

If we're talking of the collective consciousness then this could explain how the humans on the American continents could have such memories. They really did have a total flood on this land mass.  Of course that doesn't explain them being so similar to the Noah flood.  But, it might why it is on this continent. Only the Andes would have been high enough to really protect against flood and there are stories among the people of that area of such a flood.  Much before the "white" man came there. 

I'm going to watch the Mentalist and go to bed. Enjoyed the chat.

Okay...lets do some facts.  In the upper US there are fossil coral reefs and fossil shell fish and other sea fossils that show multiple heavy duty destructions.  Some would have been before the ice ages and at least at the beginning of when humans could have walked the Northern part of what is the North American Continent.

How long ago was this?

These fossils are well inland and would have had to be killed off because of a great change in the Earths climate and water location.

Um, need some data here.

How long ago?

You say 'corals' so I'm assuming you mean salt water creatures.

If they show destruction - what sort?  Bad tsunamis and hurricanes can rip up chunks of coral reef.  It doesn't take a world-wide flood to do that.  Normal events can do it as well.

"Inland', inland from what?

The raising of a continent would be much more difficult than a world flood.

What do you mean by raising?  It happens often with plate tectonics.  One plate bashes into another and the other crumples and starts to rise.  That's how the Alps, Himalayas, Andes, etc., formed.  It's quite easy.  Just brute force.

If we're talking of the collective consciousness then this could explain how the humans on the American continents could have such memories.

Well, I think that's what Lass is assuming.  I don't go for that.  To me these are just tall tales.  Everyone has floods, everyone has oral traditions, everyone likes to exaggerate stories of events for entertainment or instructional purposes.

 

Aurelia

This computer program has run out of reply buttons.  So, I'll try to explain and then probably won't have a place for further explanation. 

There have been multiple extinctions of both fresh water coral beds and salt water coral beds that are evident in the mid North American continent.  They were killed off by not one, but multiple catastrophes.  They know this because of the different kinds of corals and sea/water animals in the fossil beds. Of course the fish beds in the mid US show where ALL those sea creatures existed and died.  There was a lot of water that covered the N. American Continent millions of years ago...before the dinosaurs.  Therefore before people.

Another comment and I'm out of here.  When there would be a great flood there would be a lot of mixing of fresh and salt water...this forms what is bracken water or sort of salty fresh water. Our lake Texoma that borders Texas and Oklahoma is this kind of water....it is one of the best fishing lakes in this part of the country...fish manage to adapt quite well.  Lots of trees and other vegetation grow quite well in and around it.

Yes, a lot of mud would cause a lot of plants to have a problem growing, but just because it was said that the Noah flood was on the Earth for a year does not mean it was deep and covered everything for that long. Not being Noah and realizing that stories grow with each generation...I have my doubt of a total, cover all mountain kind of flood. 

Yes, Celt seemed to be asking about a collective consciousness, but several thousand years after such a flood or even an almost that kind of flood, the stories could have spread to many places.  I certainly am not going to limit the possibility that there was a time when the Earth's climate was calm enough that people could sail around the globe and carry stories.

AND DAVE PELLINIS comments!!! Thanks,I have learned alolt andits an interesting debate,indeed!

corals and sea/water animals in the fossil beds. Of course the fish beds in the mid US show where ALL those sea creatures existed and died.  There was a lot of water that covered the N. American Continent millions of years ago...before the dinosaurs.  Therefore before people.

So far we're not in disagreement.

Another comment and I'm out of here.  When there would be a great flood there would be a lot of mixing of fresh and salt water...this forms what is bracken water or sort of salty fresh water. Our lake Texoma that borders Texas and Oklahoma is this kind of water....it is one of the best fishing lakes in this part of the country...fish manage to adapt quite well.  Lots of trees and other vegetation grow quite well in and around it.

Um, I think you mean Lake Caddo over at the Louisiana-Texas border.  Lake Texhoma is a freshwater lake, formed from the conjunction of two rivers and a completely man-made lake.  The only 'natural' lake in Texas is Caddo Lake.  All the others are man-made.

And yes, as you pointed out, specialized plants need fresh AND salt water to survive swampy estuary type lands.  But they are specialized.

And again, if we're talking world-wide flood, it doesn't matter what kind of plants they are, freshwater plants will die in brackish water and brackish water plants will die if the balance in salt/fresh water they're used to gets messed up and ALL will die if they're covered over with a mile or more of water.  That simple.

Yes, a lot of mud would cause a lot of plants to have a problem growing, but just because it was said that the Noah flood was on the Earth for a year does not mean it was deep and covered everything for that long.

According to story it was deep enough to cover mountain peaks.  Everest is 5 miles up.

A world wide flood would have swept millions of cubic miles of topsoil and sand and mud into a slurry and been a pretty deep layer on the bottom of this world-wide sea.

The story said it was a year overall.


Not being Noah and realizing that stories grow with each generation...I have my doubt of a total, cover all mountain kind of flood. 

You should.  There's no way it could have happened.


Yes, Celt seemed to be asking about a collective consciousness, but several thousand years after such a flood or even an almost that kind of flood, the stories could have spread to many places.  I certainly am not going to limit the possibility that there was a time when the Earth's climate was calm enough that people could sail around the globe and carry stories.


Well, sure.  But it's more likely that since people have floods in their own areas, it doesn't take someone bringing a flood story from somewhere else.  They could just make up their own.

"OK, but what's your point?  I don't consider that a world-wide flood and neither would anyone else." 

 

"So there may be no scientific evidence of a single global flood event, and even if it mattered, there is no more scientific evidence against it either".

 

" A global flood is not even the issue".

 

That’s the point….Sorry I didn't shed more clarity. Even though I’ve already said it, I’ll repeat it.  But thanks for your time.  I would agree that it is most likely that a global flood took place predating all humans as we know them to be. Again  I would say that the whole concept of “global” is irrelevant, and is more attached to Hebrew dogma.

 

In the case of "Noah's Ark", I would look no further than "Enki's Boat" from the Epic of Gilgamesh. Being that the Hebrews were notorious for over simplifying their mythologies, from habitual lack of originality, such as the presumption of their version of the flood legend as a worldwide phenomenon, plus the fact that Gilgamesh is at least 2800 years older than Genesis, makes perfect sense to me in terms of rationalizing the "Noah's Ark legend".

Almost every flood legend I have run across, if not all of them, were related to some kind of divine retribution. That is one of the basic common threads. I also think it is reasonable to assert that there could have been several different floods, in several different places, during several different times. I think that is the most plausable theory, if you want to throw in science with mythology. In spite of all that, there are still amazing parallels on a worldwide scale, on the part of cultures with no anthropological link between them.

"So the idea of the flood legends themselves are more than mythological, they are geological facts."

Isn't that what I stated several times or was I not clear enough? The Tigris and Euphrates, as well as the Nile has seen floods. Including great ones. What I was arguing against is one great flood around the entire world. I realize the earth has changed a lot over the years, Kansas used to be entirely underwater. But this was way before humans existed.

I havn't had the chance to read all of this, so i missed that part of it.

EXCELLENT and thank you for adding DAVE P!! I appreciate your knowledge,insight and input on this topic! I find it fascinating!

There are a lot of things coming to my mind as water is a natural element. As all elements it can be helpful/useful or harmfull.

As there are many floods coming to my mind I think that you are refering to the first one "The Great Deluge" mentioned in the Bible. This is some kind of harmfull flood. Also the floods that followed and swallowed the continents of Atlantis, Lemuria and Mu.

Of course, this ancient world did not correspond to the now known world as Pangea was a continent known to be one single piece of land that was seperated by drifting and tectonic movements. Also some natural influences like meteorological impacts leading to climate shifts, changing landscapes and living beings.

In the Bible it is said that the Deluge was used by God to punish mankind for their sins. Atlantis drowned because mankind abused their high technological knowhow and their pride was wiped away. Question: When will nowadays mankind start again as hunters and gatherers? Haven't they learned out of history and mistakes? Still they act against nature and even themselves, that all omnipotent human supremacy, being the only intelligent species on the world and master all beings and kind of things? Good to know, that they are not :)

Imagine: When I live in the montains, the slopes covered by trees. I need farmland, so I cut all the trees. When I am able to logically calculate what I have to count with? Sure! When there is heavy rainfall and no more trees to hold back the earth erosion, so I must have the flood directly at my door and the harvest drenched.

Where is logic in these doings?

I think how mankind treat nature so it will come back. No-one and nothing wants to be ill-treated. Nature is only defending itself. But as mentioned above can also be helpful when remembered the flooding of the Nile causing good earth for planting in the High Egyptian Epoch.

Hope that is not too far from the topic, but that is what I feel concerning the theme "flood".

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