I have recently been thinking about the Minoans and their society which was believed to be Matriarchal in nature, a Goddess centred society. It has been suggested that there has never been a Matriarchal society of any kind throughout history.
My question would be what would the benefits be to men living in such a society, why would they invest their time and energies in such an arrangement?
This was the first sophisticated society in Europe during the Bronze Age, the Minoans who were essentially Arms dealers trading in bronze spears and swords of exceptional quality, and in high demand throughout the Mediterranean. They were the hunter gathers of old Europe, who worshiped the Goddess, and when they turned to farming the Goddess continued to be worshiped, although now with farming this would have led to an increase in population, and yet you don’t find chieftains in control of the island of Crete. No monuments to great Kings, and their exploits.
If Minoan men still valued cooperation left over from their Hunter gather days, and wanted to concentrate on developing their society by working on mining, ship building, sailing, arms manufacture and urban construction, how would they govern their communities and perhaps the island as a whole without placing any one man above the rest?
As a natural consequence, it would have been obvious that women, who run households, care for children, plan, and allocate resources within the family would have found this a natural extension of their skill sets to do this activity, and run the community as Administrators, and lasted until the end of the Bronze age, and the disappearance of the Minoans.
After the fall of the Minoans, it would be a long time before we would see this kind of cooperation among men until the advent of Democracy, which is a capitalist based system of governance, with men working together by being paid money to do so, and in constant competition with one another. Are men happy today, earning more or less money than each other, with their giant Televisions and Cars as a distraction, praying to a God or none at all, which are all essentially male dominated?
Does this really satisfy men today; do they have and know their true purpose in the world?
On Crete, women were also in charge of running the Goddess religion they found themselves to be at the centre of. In Minoan spirituality, a Priestess would wear a long dress with an open top, baring her breasts, as this is the focus of her religious beliefs, as a ‘Breast centred Goddess Consciousness,’ the ‘Sacred Breast,’ to commune with and pray to the Goddess, and also as the conduit to the Goddess, allowing men to commune and pray to the Goddess by making a deep sensual connection with their partners.
The writer Sophie Bashford says - For a woman to open up to her immense, natural sexual fullness she needs to trust a man with her heart, soul and sacred feminine core.~
She needs to feel that he recognizes that she is goddess in incarnate form. He needs to recognize that the core of him - his masculinity - is deeply nourished by the spiritual feminine and that it is only through surrender to this sacred Shakti force that he can become the man he yearns to be (and the world most needs)….
Bashford, is essentially making the same point as the Minoan Priestesses that a man is deeply nourished by the spiritual feminine of the Goddess within a woman, and what men sadly lack in our world today.
Is this what makes a Matriarchal society of value to men. To be free in the pursuit of knowledge, skills, and purpose, while at the same time finding a deep fulfillment within the Goddess through her living representative’s on Earth, as Administers, and as Priestesses of the Goddess.
In this society all are playing to their strength both Material and Spiritual.
Thank you Vegan, Yes your point on 'the accumulation of wealth down the female lineage' is called a Matrilineal system, and has also been compared to the Minoans as an explanation against calling it a Matriarchy.
Perhaps living on an isolated Island with a small population, this would explain the worst of the Neolithic practices were less common here.
The subjugation of women by those in control had to convince men using religion that there would be no consequence to their Immortal Souls in the way they treat women in this life. The Sex coach Cosmic Kari Star says 'Men and women have been improperly informed that a man's attraction to a woman is lust. This was to diminish the truth of the attraction. It is worship. It is sacred. Sacred Masculine begins the worship of the Divine Feminine with his magnetic attraction to her. We have been led to belittle this attraction and call it "only" lust. In the old masculine dominance, the magnificence of men's gift to women was intentionally degraded so women would not feel this worship while men ruled the world.
I find that a lot of Goddess groups are women only groups, because they're understandably trying heal their psyches from the toll of Patriarchy. However, the irony of this exclusion, to bring back the Goddess, it can only happen, when the Sacred Masculine begins the worship of the Divine Feminine.
That would also include the dark goddess , death mother
aspect , not just some idealized peaceful , all loving mother
image , as has often been attributed to matriarchal cultures...
The old vulture cults , and bone mother cults , existed long before
any Zoroastrianistic influence , and were connected to witch cults...
Eating the body and drinking the blood were sacred , and were understood
as the womens' domain of Birth , Life , and Death mother , with no judgement...
I forget the exact quote, but it goes something like,
"You can call the Earth a Mother, but she's not a particularly doting one."
Shawn is right. There are some theories that some of the Minoan seals and jewelry we have uncovered depict sacrifices of slaves.
Of course, they found those indications of cannibalism, which I think is arguable. The same knife marks used indicate a body being cut up and defleshed to eat, could also be someone who cut up and defleshed a body for sacrifice or punishment. To throw a body to the dogs, for example. The ultimate in punishments for the worst evil doers.
They did find the human sacrifice of a young man, but if things were going really really bad for the Minoans at the time, human sacrifice would not be unheard of nor illogical for a culture that believes in sacrifices of valuables to the gods.
After all, if things were really bleak - famine, pestilence, invasion - people would sacrifice their most precious belongings to the gods in hopes of relief. And finally when food, incense, gold, goats, then bulls are not enough, what is left that is valuable almost beyond measure? Human life. So that's the next thing, the last thing , of a desperate people to give to the gods.
I’m afraid that we can never know Nephele if "Any benefits for either men or women in such a society are probably not sustainable." As an answer to my question on the Minoan society if you want to be specific, as the their culture came to an end due to environmental catastrophe of the eruption of the Thera Volcano now call Santorini, with the effects of a massive Tsunami which destroyed the Minoans fleet of ships which they relied on for the Islands protection, and the Mycenaean encroachment on the Island.
I don't think I'm as pessimistic as you Magena; I think your point ‘I just feel like a matriarchal society would be good for a while but then things would start going downhill.’ Perhaps the term Matriarchy is somewhat inaccurate to describe this Minoan culture, as we lack an alternative, in the same way as Virginia Raggi the current mayor of Rome says the terms of ‘Left or Right’ policies to label a party, are out of date, for her, they are merely solutions for one problem or another.
Its similar in nature to the distinction – Does a man make Love to a woman or with her?
Minoan women were Administrators, they didn’t govern, in the sense they had power over men, they organised the everyday activities of their communities, as well as the rituals of their religion that both men and women followed. That’s not to say there were no male gods, or Male Priests, there were.
If we were to adopt this model today there would be a lot of crossover of skills within the sexes, and would work quite well as long as the main principle is adhered to.
First , I note you did not comment on my previous post , nor Aurelia's...
Secondly , I do not believe Magena is being pessimistic in any sense...
I would say more a realist...
Third , I was in the middle of the 1970's Women's Movement , and the
1980's Feminist Movement...I watched the whole thing unfold , had a
number of ladyfriends and lovers involved , sometimes heavily in it ,
then , as I sold jewelery , natural oils , and visionary art , was in the
middle of the whole New Age and Goddess Movement , and last but
not least , lived in the San Francisco bay area during the days of the
uprising of the free love hippie movement , which at it's psychedelic
mind awakening best , embraced Women's Power early on...
Then , I lived in communes and back to the land ranches and farms for
years , and when I settled down again in the southern bay area , was
instrumental at supplying Goddess art for feminist publishing companies ,
organizing Goddess art festivals , and was responsible for creating the
"Celebrating Women's Spirituality" calendar , and book "Goddess Remembered"
for Crossing Press , as well Goddess calendars for Landmark calendars...
In other words , saying all this , for many , many years , I was in the middle of
these movements where the Feminine was equal , if not foremost , in society
Later , I became intimately , in many senses of the word , involved with the
Tantric Movement and teachings , and my first tantric lover was Rajneesh's /
(later Osho's ) first Tantrika in the United States...
Yet , she was just one of the many interactions within the tantric community ,
I experienced , with all the attendant teachings...
Were you aware Tantra is considered to be an early form of Witchcraft in many
parts of eastern teachings ?
What type of Tantra are you refering to ?
The watered down , Americanized version , where men are told to worship woman ,
and the Shakti , or the Tantra where gender roles are only seen through the lens of
yin - yang energy fields , and you have large circles of people participating , building
energy fields for ritual and magical purposes ?
It is in this sense , the deeper level of Tantra , where men , and women , if there needs
to be instruction , are told to "sense" not see , the Yang within the woman and exterior
goddess , and the Yin within the man , and exterior god...*That* is real Tantra...
And again , the Shakti holds the powers of Maiden , Mother , Crone , by one set of names
Saraswati , Shakti , and Lakshmi , yet we should include Durga and Kali...as these hold great
importance in her power...her shadow , so to say , as well the light , yet in her being it is all
one energy , yet different aspects...
As far as the ideas you espouse about "breast centered consciousness" and the attendant
meanings , those are ideas developed by academics , and certain feminists...there is no proof ,
that I am aware of , nor is there proof of much in the espoused ideas regarding much about the
Minoan civilization...even the name , Minoan , is an invention , as far as I am aware...
As far as the statues , I am well aware of those , including the ones with two snakes , and
two double axes , which are symbols of the witchcraft cults , which I work with and teach
about...the shape of those statues , long dress and all , is based on the symbols we use for
Maiden , Mother , and Crone , fit together , with arm positions , and all...
It is so sad , academia bases it's conclusions on information , without true knowledge from
the initiate's point of view , underlying these cultures...but that happens regularly , not just
regarding "Minoan" culture and society...but the initiates normally do not speak of what they
know , passed down through the ages...;)...I have no problem with speaking up...
Lastly...as I spoke of , previously , regarding the 70's , and 80's movements...
Ultra feminists , such as Gloria Steinem , realized later , the movements had gone overboard ,
and equality of the sexes was what was a much better approach...she even went from a strict
lesbian stance to a relationship with a man...if I am not wrong she married one...
Many from that time frame came to those same conclusions , that equality , not any one gender
ideal over another , nor an imbalanced idea of male / female / anima / animus , was the answer...
I also take umbrage at your , and your quoted "sex coach's" assumption that men are responsible
for the idea of "lust"...this is another devalueing of women by misguided feminists , and men who
are mentally neutered by modern day espoused belief...
Woman are just as *lusty* as men , if not more so...personal knowledge , as well sitting in many
circles , listening closely to their laughing at that belief they are not , in a major part of their being
and essence , outright ravenous for just sex , without love , many times...
I was with a woman , for seven years , who loved sex at least three times a day , many times for
hours at a time...transcendental meditation practitioner , spiritual , absolutely lusty...;)
So...there are other ways of looking at things , other than some false idealized version of what
women are , what they want , and what kind of society we would have if they were in charge...
As well , that same woman I mentioned above...when she was on her monthly flow , she insisted
on watching two to three very violent movies , every night for a week , or I suffered...
She told me she wanted to , as Arlo Guthrie put it in "Alice's Restaurant" , "kill , kill , kill"...;)
Yeah...I do think equal governing , or administrating , is best...my inner goddess tempered her
during those times...lol
I do also note a lot of men , get into feminism , and go around espousing a woman first , or woman centered , society , to get in their good graces , and dresses , or pants...saw it many times...;)
Oh, I’m sorry Shawn Blackwolf if I didn’t respond to yours and Aurelia's comments on the thread the first time, I thought you making a point about the Goddess, and Aurelia's insightful comments on the history of the Minoans. I wasn’t aware they were relevant to the discussion?
So by all means thank you for your thoughts and opinions you took the time to share with me. You have a lot of information you like to share with all of us, as you’re a prolific writer on the site, and I’m sure that lots of people have benefited from your insights. If Vegan had been following the thread before closing his account, he would have found your post of great interest I’m sure.
Guess you just aren't intelligent enough or insightful enough
to make the links , to your statements , and our posts , Meridian...
But that is okay...I am sure some others will see those links ,
and as you say , benefit from them...
As far as Vegan , or the many names he has posted under on this site ,
he probably will incarnate back under some other name...I would welcome
him gladly , as he is a pleasant , and insightful person , I have interacted
with positively here many times...;)
You like a butt... Shush :3
Shawn, dude is all about boobs :3
No Shawn Blackwolf because where I come from a statement doesn't require a response, but I suppose if you couch it in such intellectual genius, you would have to be a mind reader to get that.
Yes, I would have agreed with you at first, that Vegan is a pleasant, and insightful person, and after your rant on my views, I would have liked to re-posted his comments which I had copied, as he had said he 'loved the post, and found it very thought provoking.' But his comments weren't just deleted his entire profile had disappeared, so I wasn't able to ask his permission to do that. So quite clearly you must hold him in the same contempt that you hold me in; but I suspect that he's nothing more than a doormat to you, or a Lick spittle at best. I not surprised that you'd welcome him back gladly ;)
If you open a thread in a serious subject not just humor ,
it shows courtesy to respond to someone's answer to your
original question or statement...
If in your back ass neck of the woods , that is not the way ,
or if you were not taught that as a child , I guess someone
shall need to give you instruction...
As far as this off the wall , somewhat blaming me for Vegan's
leaving , or some crazy ass accusation of my despising him...
You sir , have obviously bent over so far to attempt to make
some incorrect point , as to catch your head where the sun
shineth not , and all you must see is your mental feces...
You obviously , as I have seen in other threads , get all prissy
when someone does not agree with you...not a good thing on
any social site , especially here...;)