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So balance. This is among the hardest things to do. Why is that? For many different reasons I find. I find that women who go to the Craft do it so they can down play male energies, and fully reject those aspects. I find that people turn to it because of the harsh world of Christianity and their very over barring ethics and beliefs, or for whatever reasons. So as a Gay man it shouldn’t’ come to any surprise that balance is easy and yet difficult to attain.


There are two balances that a gay man needs to achieve in my personal experience, and merging those are sometimes difficult.


Those are Feminine and Masculine and atlas Dark and Light energies.


So let’s start with Feminine and Masculine. Everyone contains these energies, but sometimes one is more dominant than the other. Some say it’s the God and the Goddess. Whatever it is, its powerful, its strong and it’s in us all. So how do we attain this? Whatever way we know how.


I wanted to strictly adjust this for gay men. We don’t have a lot of things going for us when it comes to the Craft no matter what people say. We are constantly been shun down because experessing these beliefs for whatever reason. Its hard for a gay man to truly accept the idea of Heterosexuality in Divinity, its because we are NOT straight. We understand that it is both straight and gay if you will, and that we don’t reject the notions of say other traditions who practice those arts that focus on the fertility role of the male and female or God and Goddess. However, this can be difficult, even for those who cross-dress or have no problems dressing as a woman, have difficulties embracing these roles.




Because we are gay. We are men. I love some of Chris’s work (Penzac) but I find he focuses to much on those heterosexual elements without really truly addressing those homosexual elements. So what do you do?


In my tradition we focus on Feminine and Masculine energies, the Feminine energies are been three fold, Maiden, Mother and Crone, but is seen more as mother to the two Gods that focus on the Masculine energies.


So my second point for balance, is Dark and Light.


We all share thse, but among Gay men and Lesbian women these aspects are more dominantly shown than their feminine or masculine energies because we have that balance of energies and we can fit into the roles we need to. However, the Dark and Light aspects are the true natures of our balance that we need to learn how to achieve. Why?


Because of resonance, which you should maybe look up and read.


What I want to know is what you guys think of the homosexual elements and the modern day era. How you do your work as a gay man or even as a straight man embracing a God Deity. I want to know what you think, and learn from what you have to offer.


Sorry if I am not clear, its hard to express myself in English.

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as a gay practitioner of a fertility religion, i take no offense at its overtly heterosexual aspects.  i understand that that's how nature works and that heterosexuality is the means by which the life i revere perpetuates itself.


we all carry masculine/feminine and light/dark in different proportions; it's for us to find our own balance.  as for participating in rituals with my friends, it's a celebration of life and life is the process of procreation.  so my god has sex with my goddess.  he also happens to respond very well when i do sex magic, so no loss.


problems usually only arise when somebody brings in unnatural ideas like monogamy and modesty.  luckily, i'm in a community that's well-enough open about those things.

Very interesting.


Like I said, I take the heterosexual elements, but I also understand that Divinity has many homosexual elements. Sometimes I divide my God into two forms (dark and light) and make them homosexual and yet bisexual in the sense of reproduction. I understand that nature has these elements, although not always (such as asexual reproduction and so forth), but I like the idea of combining the homosexual elements that are sometimes loss in the heterosexual elements of Wicca, witchcraft and other religions.


So I try to tie as much as possible of the heterosexuality, as well as the transgendered and the homosexual elements as possible without dominanting another.


Does that make sense?

That's cool.


That's not my point however. Anyone can put two and two together and agree it's beautiful, may question is more reference toward Gay Deities, and their union and how they affect each other. I work strongly with the Father God and Mother Goddess in my rites, but it's something that doesn't fully comprehend with me.


I am not a straight man. I have no interests in having sex with woman. I understand that's how the world goes round (most of the time, there are other ways of reproduction) but because I can't fully understand the Heterosexual mysteries, there are the homosexual mysteries that I feel we as gay men should explore to reclaim pieces of our own history.


Such as the Queer Folk, the Ashumuri spirits of Inanna.


Or perhaps even some Deities who are Gay friendly, like Apollo, or Zeus, Pan and so forth.


My question wasn't refered to understanding heterosexuality and Wicca, my views were more directed as a Gay man, and the views of Deity in a homosexual sense, lesbian or even gay. I'm sorry but if you aren't heterosexual, you can't understand that love and that energy and what it means to give birth and life. It's just not possible. Sure we could suck it up and have sex with a woman and feel these thigns, certainly, but if you aren't heterosexual by nature you will never be able to fully understand or comprehend those mysteries.


With that said however, we each have our own interpretations, views, opinions and Mysteries we strive to unshackle or decipher. As a gay man, the Mysteries are very much different. We are different and yet the same. Because we are walkers between worlds we can assume any role we desire, and yes we even take on those heterosexual elements of Divinity.


My thought, and propsoal, was more directed towards Gay Divinity, or the aspects of homosexuality. Have you, or would you incorporate those elements? And if so, how would you? What would be your Polarity?


That is what I am trying to ask.

you might want to look into antinous, the deified lover of emperor hadrian.  there are several groups dedicated to him on yahoo, and one here on pagan space.  i didn't get a lot out of the yahoo group i joined that was dedicated to him; it was a lot of chit chat and ego massaging and not enough discussion of antinous and what he represents.


i didn't really connect with antinous the god, either.  i don't see my sexual being as straight or gay.  gender and sexual orientation are so fluid that i think it over complicates things to section it off into more than the essential male/female dichotomy.


pagans seem to want to over complicate everything these days.  triple gods, five elements, this mystery, that mystery, blah blah blah.  take a step back and try to see the oneness first, then look for the path that's going to get you there.

I'm not insecure about my path. I already know what I follow and what I believe. I see the wholeness as you put it, and I work with that. I know my path, I should considering I've been practicing since I was 7. And yes I complicated agree that pagans can sometimes over complicated things. This can be a good and bad thing.


Ahtough yes in the end our essence is that of a soul and will return to this one wholeness, I still think that sexuality personally is a very important aspect of who and what I am. I don't think it defines me however, and like I said I work a lot of "hetero" based traditions obviously, but again you are missing the point.


What I am wondering from those who do practice Gay paganism, and incorporate their sexuality (because it is important, and always will be) in their beliefs in Practices.


I have my devotions to the Lord and Lady, and the God head (the ONe God or whatever, the wholness) and than from the Lord and Lady I like to complicate it. It's just who I am. I love the idea of branching off and working with all these faces, because I learn so much from them.


Mother, Maiden, Crone, and further beyond that. I am not a Wiccan, I was raised as a very traditional Catholic (father side) and a very traditional Witch (my mother).


And so from my mother's teachings, I learnt of The Oak King and Holly King, and incorporated those beliefs in a homosexual element, and that is how I work those things in for myself.


What I am wondering from all of you who do work with some form of Gay Paganism is how you do it. How you incorporate (if not at all) your sexuality into the picture.


Again it's not to complicate, or define. To stereotype or to contain. If that is what you are feeling towards my writing, I am sorry that isn't my point. I just see sexuality as a very fluid, ever changing, very powerful, and very unique thing that people should explore. And because Gay people really don't have a lot of things out there, expessially for theology, that is why I like to explore these avenues for those people so I know how to work those things into my own beliefs.


As a Magician, an occultist and witch, I am a scientist. I like to make things complicate, label, and unlabel, and than not use label. Magic isn't an exact science. It's not meant to make much sense. It's sceintific, it's fact, it's primal, dangerous, potential, empowering, natural, supernatuarl. It's all these aspects and more, but exploring those feelings and avenues, is a glorious thing. Can be truly freeing, but can also be very, very restrincting.


And I applaud you Bad Tim, that you are able to shed and unshackle yourself, and able to not complicate things as it were and see the world as a whole beign. Oneness as you put it. But not many people can. Not many people can shed the layers of reality, or seen it completely as whole. Does that make sense?

One of the things I haven't cared for in witchcraft, and kept me away from connecting with its rituals and practices, is the whole (seemingly) strict male-female, light-dark, and other types of dualism (which of course is also found in Christianity).  In reality, at least my reality, everything is neither black or white, but various shades of grey, or on a good day, a rainbow of positive and uplifting experiences.  I see the gods as reflections - to a much greater degree of course - of humans.  There are straight, gay and bi- gods, transgendered gods, gods who probably could care less about having sex... and I bet there's a 'straight' god or two, who with enough alcohol offered up, might give me the time of day (or night)! LOL 

I don't see fertility in ritual being solely about heterosexual coupling and procreation, though that is important, as we DO need heterosexuals to keep making those lil gay babies! LOL  Fertility in ritual could just as well be about acquiring the inspiration via our mentors, friends, family, coven-mates to create a new artistic piece, craft item, song, poem, book or even re-make ourselves into a better person?  (I was reading how Circle Sanctuary, I believe, now allows those who identify with the 'male role/energy' (both physically male and female) of the May Pole ritual to engage in the that role... the same goes for those who identify with the 'female role/energy'.  So there is a start in the craft to begin breaking down strict gender roles within ritual... at least among one very progressive branch of Paganism.

Just a few thoughts...

I enjoy this forum a lot as it does allow for expression of how gay/bi/trans/het male energy impacts Paganism, and our many religions, beliefs, practices and rituals... and ourselves.


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