Wicans VS Witches!

Personaly I am SICK and tired of the competition for lack of a better word. But would like to know how the people in here stand on the topic!

Peace

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Permalink Reply by Pavlor on July 2, 2008 at 3:43pm: Dallion Firewolf,

Have a look at this:

I introduced Wicca into this country in 1963… Originally Gerald Gardner and myself, we referred to it as Witchcraft and called ourselves Witches… Then gradually a movement started saying, well let’s call ourselves Wicca so that people don’t think that we’re old-style witches, and Gerald and I both said, well, if you change your name, how long before people say, well they call themselves so-and-so but they’re really Witches. So we thought it was much more important to educate people on the misconceptions of Witches and Witchcraft, but gradually, I guess the other side as it were took hold and these days people think of Gardrnerian and similar types as Wicca and they apply the word Witchcraft to just spellcasting and magic and what have you, and of course you get a lot of what we often call fluffy bunny types who want to cast spells and want to do magic, and really if that’s all they want to do then they can do that; they don’t have to be Witches, they’re magicians, so you can do magic and be a magician, you don’t have to call yourself a Witch. But anyway, this is the way things are going and I think … And in some ways it’s a shame, I think Witchcraft is getting diluted to the point where it doesn’t really mean anything. There’s still the hardcore Wicca or what’s now called Wicca which is the religious aspects, the belief in the gods, the celebrations of the Sabats and the Esbats and so on, there’s that hardcore and I think that will always remain, but, outside that it’s got to the point that almost anybody can say and do anything and say this is Witchcraft and nobody can say no it’s not because we’ve lost the borderlines if you like, of it

This is a transcription of Raymond Buckland talking about Witchcraft, nowadays called Wicca by the Americans. Buckland himself refers to it as Witchcraft and called himself and the likes of himself Witches.

Source: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2w1Cuo0kngQ; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Edward on July 2, 2008 at 5:24pm: Most words have more than one definition. Our are not the same.
Wica is the correct spelling and is the older of the terms we use today.
Ray is a wonderful writer.
I would suggest" Gerald Gardner And the Cauldron of Inspiration: An Investigation into the Sources of Gardnerian Witchcraft (Paperback, 2003) Author: Philip Heselton

And interviews done by Correllians at book signing are just that. Not current views of a witch by no means complete or 100%; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Pavlor on July 2, 2008 at 5:42pm: I agree, but this is from the horses mouth, as it were. I do believe that Witchcraft as the precursor to Wicca or Wica was taken over to the States and named as was given a different name.

Not current views of a witch by no means complete or 100%

No, not current, but as Buckland states, it wasn't even called Wicca/Wica when it arrived in the US - it was Witchcraft. I don't for one moment think the New Forestonians called it Wicca/Wica.

Where is this information about the spelling of Wicca vs Wica, by the way?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Edward on July 2, 2008 at 5:47pm: http://www.thewica.co.uk/ please go to this website if you need to know more. I would say that a large part of the Gardnerian community recommend this website for further information. So what part of the world are you in again?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Pavlor on July 2, 2008 at 5:57pm: Interesting website - I'll bookmark it and read it later, when I have time. I read in Wiccan Roots that Gardner had dyslexia and this is why he made mistakes in his spelling all the time (including Old Dafo - I can't remember why that's relevant, but I can check it out if you want!).

I grew up in the UK, now live in Finland (check out my profile or PM if you want to know more).; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Edward on July 2, 2008 at 6:37pm: http://www.ecauldron.com/articles/archives/2006/04/entry_31.php

here is a article that might help more folks in this discussion. This is my last post on the topic.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Laira on July 2, 2008 at 10:05pm: Thorough, Dallion...very interesting site. Much to learn. Our coven calls ourselves "eclectic Gardnerian" because, though we are lineaged back to New Forest and follow basic Gardnerian ritual structure, we do not follow his BOS verbatim. For example, my high priestess initiated me (we have no high priest), we do not have an equal number of males/females in our coven, we do not work skyclad, we use no scourge, etc.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Pavlor on July 3, 2008 at 5:42am: You can still be "traditional" and evolve, in my opinion. I don't agree with some of what Dallion Firewolf's sources state, although on the other hand, it does make sense to me. However, all in all, I do find the information rather stuffy, to be honest. There has been one hell of a paradigm shift in the culture of Witchcraft and yes, I believe there is an *Old* and *New*, but to place it at 1979 with the advent of Starhawk's The Spiral Dance is somewhat perturbing. I believe it is much deeper than this, and the disparities would appear more cultural, from all the information I've read on the subject.

Secrecy Vs. Openness

But before such positive media PR, most Old Guard Pagans learned quickly to 'keep themselves to themselves'. Usually, there was no one to talk with anyway, and when there was, it was someone trying to dissuade you from your choice. Thus, most Old Guard Pagans are more inclined to secrecy concerning their involvement than New Guard Pagans.

Source: http://www.ecauldron.com/articles/archives/2006/04/entry_31.php

I would also like to look at Gardner's publicity of Witchcraft. If the so-called "Old Guard Pagan" believed in secrecy, why on earth did Gardner begin his recce into the Media? Surely this was considered *bad practice* by the Old Gate Keepers. Have you read the Media interviews with him? He talks rather a lot, don't you think? Should we look at Gardner's "outing" of Witchcraft a disservice or a service to the community, although in Dallion's source it states that "Old Guard Pagans" are suspicious of communities, which I understand.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Capricorn on July 3, 2008 at 11:39am: I can't speak for her, but I would suspect that Starhawk probly wouldn't place it at the publication of her book either, LOL; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Laira on July 3, 2008 at 2:05pm: Doreen Valiente, Gardner's HPS, did not particularly like Old Gerald's way of seeking media attention either. She eventually left his group, as I understand it.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Capricorn on July 2, 2008 at 11:27pm: *nods* Yes it's very individualistic. Your lists were interesting. Not correct or incorrect, since it's your stream of thought. But interesting.

I am a witch, who is not a wiccan........ and I'd include many of the things you listed under wiccan as part of the Witch list too.

I have a place for fairies in my home. I worship and work with Goddesses (and Gods), and as to the Astrology, I certainly embody alot of Capricorn traits, enough to gain a moniker!

However I am also Vegetarian, love Nature, Herbalism...I find Qquantum physics very fascinating....etc. And I understand and respect pantheism..........but am really more theistic in practice and belief. I see the sacred in everything, but also see deities as specific entities.

It is interesting what a person associates with a word isn't it?

Namaste!; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Pavlor on July 3, 2008 at 6:02am: From your list, it just looks like Wiccan is pop culture's version of Witchcraft *lol*; ▶ Reply to This