Witch ":Credentials"!!

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Permalink Reply by Celticlass on July 2, 2008 at 6:04pm

What I said about my experiences on the messages boards is the truth. You thought that the discusioin should be ended earlier,didnt you? Really.....What more Is there to be said? I will defend any accusations made,of course.

Permalink Reply by Celticlass on July 2, 2008 at 6:09pm

I dont believe they were accusations,just the facts that seem to be "achanging".........per Gaia.......oh well whatever........I guess that for Gaia to call me a liar and my path is based on my "Own foolishness" is something I should just let pass..........sorry,cant do that........or else.all my ancestors looking in will really wonder about that "Good Gordon Clan Heitage".yea,the one I cant prove.......this is worth it to keep this going,why not?

Permalink Reply by Edward on July 3, 2008 at 10:25am

Its not about calling you a Liar. Its about backing up with proof or document what you can about what you claim. If I claim to be a Priest Hierophant of the Fellowship of Isis, I must provide evidence of that if I wish to work with other members of the Fellowship of isis as a Priest Hierophant. Lady Olivia Robertson provided me with a Certificate in her Hand of Write. With her known Art work all around the page. So when I get students which I have, they can look at my certificate and say "Cool he is who he says he is." Now if I say My great great grandmother was a town wise woman that was a midwife or herbalist. I should have some type of paper work historical in nature to show , or a 1 person account of this family story. etc. I have my grandmother on audio recorded for old wives tells she has told for that very reason. I have pictures of her , my great relatives and I have done the Family Tree Research with proofs to prove anything about my family I state.

Asking me for that proof does not make me a liar , but If I tell someone oh just believe me its true. That does not prove my arguement. Nor does it instill confidence in my knowledge to others.

My first teacher claimed to be Gardnerian , he had just read " The Witches Bible complete" he had never actually worked with or been initiated into a Gardnerian lineage. I did not know to ask for proof back then , I do now.

BB Dallion Firewolf

Permalink Reply by Gaia-d on July 3, 2008 at 2:42pm

My Reply:

SABRINA SAID:

I have re-opened the "Witch Credentials" thread - just an FYI. I feel Celticlass made several posts this afternoon and several accusations towards Gaia. Now Gaia may not respond. And that is fine. But she would have NO opportunity to do so with the conversation closed. Celticlass wrote to me privately saying she had closed the discussion. That is how I learned it was closed.
And I felt it was an unfair act on her part. I had read the last few posts by Celticlass and they were all quite nasty. Not a good way to leave a discussion in my opinion.


GAIA NOW:
I must agree with you, and that's why i've decided to direct my final comments to you, and Starfire --
First, i can no longer even hope that Celticlass wants a good end to this discussion; her actions prove otherwise.

Second, I cannot tell you and Starfire both how gratifying it is to find two people who resist going with the crowd, or just accepting whatever they are told, but rather try to seek out all sides to determine TRUTH for themselves.

So, here we go --

1. CELTICLASS SAID:
"Gaia.You have changed your story quite considerably,I guess,as soon as you thought when you responded to my post here,that not everyone would agree with you. When,on Goddesses green earth did you say we both agreed paper credentiels were not that important."

GAIA NOW:
I have NOT "changed" anything at all -- perhaps she just wasn't listening.

For example, i said essentially the very same thing in one of my private email replies to her previously -- Here is the relevant passage:

"You have completely misrepresented everything i've said. I NEVER even suggested that "paper credentials" were superior to life experience --that was YOUR imagination trying to find something to settle on instead of acknowledging the mistakes we called you on.

And As i've said several times, credentials are not just "paper", they consist of (demonstrable, provable) experience as well:
For example, if a Wiccan claims to have served as a hospital or military chaplain, that can generally be proven or disproven, as the case may be. If a Wiccan claims to have "taught classes for over 20 years", that should be provable, as well -- i've taught classes for over 30 years and i can give you the names of the colleges and community groups where my classes ran, as well as the years, and you can check that out to prove whether i'm telling the truth or "padding" my credentials.

In fact, i don't think "paper credentials" are (necessarily) more important than life experience -- i think they go together, as so many things do in Wicca, for a BALANCE.

I just said that any LEGITIMATE practitioner should be able to TRACE THEIR LINEAGE -- and such a lineage is only one particular kind of "credential" -- paper or otherwise.

Other types of credentials might be any of the following:

1) a list of classes taught at Universit(ies) or community groups;
2) press releases or reports of interviews by print or broadcast media as an "expert" on Wicca;
3) advertisements for scheduled engagements as a featured speaker, teacher, workshop or Ritual leader at national or regional Wiccan conferences and festivals;
4) national or regional positions held in Wiccan organizations.

See - all of those can be proven - or disproven.

Now to DISPROVE Celticlass's assertion that i "changed my story" about the value of credentials, here are just a few examples of similar statements made by me: these were all posted to groups she frequents:

a) Gaia posted to "BeginningWicca" Message #30521 of 30906, Tue May 13, 2008

"... it's been said that "only a Witch can make a Witch".
Of course, the MOST IMPORTANT INITIATION is by the hand of the Lady Herself, any others are simply recognitions of that primary
initiation by groups of humans."

b) "...Also, if you want to teach, you OWE your students the very best possible training and preparation -- including credentials."

Continued -

Permalink Reply by Gaia-d on July 3, 2008 at 3:21pm

Continued --p 2

"... And again, "booklearning" is fine, but the real test is always practical -- can they display *evidence* in terms of real life circumstances, of all these."

c) Message #20836 of 22013, Gaia in "Witch Essentials on Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:12 am

"...It's important to remember, however, that Ultimately, it is the God(s) and Goddess(es) Who initiate Their own, and a HP/S can only confirm / affirm that which the God/dess(es) do or have done. THEY ultimately are the (only!) Ones who determine who is (and is not!) an authentic Witch."

b) Message #19988 of 22013 GAia in "Witch Essentials on Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:20 pm

" There is an *inner* aspect to initiation as well, which is not so obvious. Properly conferred, a Wiccan initiation includes a transformative personal experience the nature of which is ineffable. That is to say, it cannot be readily described. Such experiences in religous or spiritual settings are often termed "Mysteries." Thus the common observation that Wicca is "an initatiory Mystery religion." Part of the purpose in the long training period that normally leads up to one's first initiation is to try to put the candidate into the proper frame of mind to undergo and derive the fullest benefit from the transformative experience."
(quote from "Brocktn",
http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=4&nav=messages&...


c) Message #15214 of 30905 Gaia in "BeginningWicca" on Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:51 pm

"Traditionally, a witch trains for at least a year and a day to prepare for the First Degree initiation. It (hopefully) indicates that initiation is NOT something that is done after reading a book or two, attending a ritual or two, participating in a discussion group or two....
The time constraint - waiting a year and a day -- indicates the time, effort, discipline, focus, devotion, practice, and persistence that are needed to become a Wiccan.
Certainly, time is not the only thing that matters: for some folks, Five years and five days may not be sufficient time to legitimately call oneself a Wiccan. But it does hopefully imply the right attitude: work, study, practice, learn, grow. Consistently. Persistently."


2. Next, Celticlass continues to MISREPRESENT my answer about whether covens are necessary to learn and practice Wicca.

CELTICLASS:
except if something comes up that caught my attention and it did. "Must a witch (wiccan) go through a coven and be taught by a teacher.? Gais responded yes"


GAIA NOW:
NOT TRUE. Here is what i actually said:

Message #21968 of 22013 in "Witch Essentials":
"I'd like to make a clarification here --
It is entirely possible to PRACTICE as a solitary;
However, when you are first starting out and in training -- IN fact, the only way to actually, legitimately learn Wicca is to join a coven OR TO LEARN FROM A HIGH PRIEST/ESS.

I know it's somewhat popular now to suggest that training and initiation are unnecessary, or can be done by ones self, and that may be true for some forms of Witchcraft, but NOT for (traditional) Wicca.

Wicca cannot be learned from a book, or on one's own -- It is and has always been an Initiatory, Mystery religion, which is passed down from High Priest/ess to Seeker, Dedicant or Initate. There are reasons for this which I'm happy to explain, should anyone wish ...."


3. Celticlass continues to pretend this is an issue about what she has a right to do or be, or an issue of "beleiving her", when it is nothing of the kind:

CELTICLASS:
"Still wont accept what I am telling you what and how I am a Witch? Still not believing i am a witch because of my self study,clan lines,family history,family tradition and because i am from a line of witches? "

GAIA NOW:
For all i care, CElticLass can beleive that her every fart is a pure, holy Revelation from God in the original Angelic language,-- And what i do don't believe or accept of that is just as completely IRRELEVANT as her "beliefs", to this discussion.

It has nothing to do with her personal beliefs or practices. She is welcome to beleive and practice whatever she wishes - until she brings it out of the personal into the public arena, and tries to convince others that her private interpretations and practices are some legitimate, accepted version of Wicca, to other (especially young and impressionable) beginners -- that she should be prepared to SUPPORT those claims, or else run the risk of being questioned and called on them -- even strongly.
She seems constitutionally unable to understand the differences there; i trust you and Starfire can.

YET MORE LIES:

CELTICLASS:
Gaia DEMANDED I produce my clan Gordon "papers"


GAIA NOW:
LIe.
I have already explained several times what i did and did not request of her; There were no "demands", i simply told her that if she could not back up her three claims with
legitimate scholarship, that the discussion was closed:

Gaia wrote in email:
"Heather --
Please note, i asked you to present EVIDENCE to support your claims. More of the same is not evidence, it's just more of your personal claims.
Blessings -- ~Gaia"

Another Email sent to Heather from Gaia:
"Heather - I am not sure you are quite understanding the situation yet: As i previously said, i agree that Wicca can be PRACTICED as solitary or in a coven, or even both -- I have no argument with you about that. Where we differ is a) the claims you made about your lineaged path and b) how it is passed on.
If you can provide evidence for those claims, i will certainly see that evidence is posted. However, i see no reason to have more "tit-for-tat" discussion on this, and i certainly do NOT Intend to have an ongoing argument, which would only distress the group.

Therefore, i feel it's best to bring this discussion to an end -- unless, of course, (again), you present evidence to support your allegations.
Blessings -- Gaia"

HEATHER/ CELTICLASS:

I made no claims,just stated who and what i am,from practicing BEING a Celtrc
earth witch for over 50 years. "


ME:(Alyx)
**No, you claimed to be from a long line of "ancient" Highland Scottish witches, called Pictish-Witta, that learning and training was not necessary for you because it was in your DNA! We call that a "claim."


Continued, p 3

Permalink Reply by Gaia-d on July 3, 2008 at 3:34pm

Continued, p 3 -
And i've made the very same points in private email to her, as in the following:
"Heather - I am not sure you are quite understanding the situation yet: As i previously said, i agree that Wicca can be PRACTICED as solitary or in a coven, or even both -- I have no argument with you about that. Where we differ is a) the claims you made about your lineaged path and b) how it is passed on.
If you can provide evidence for those claims, i will certainly see that evidence is posted. However, i see no reason to have more "tit-for-tat" discussion on this, and i certainly do NOT Intend to have an ongoing argument, which would only distress the group.
Therefore, i feel it's best to bring this discussion to an end -- unless, of course, (again), you present evidence to support your claims/ allegations.
Blessings -- Gaia"

HEATHER:
I am a Scottish historian,have studied my clan and others and the history of Scotland my whole adult life.

GAIA:
Riiight - and i am the Witch-Queen of the World; I've taught witchcraft to millions of greatful High Priests who have hived off hundreds of covens, for over 500 years;
- in fact i helped write the Kabbalah AND the Koran, and I taught Charles Leland, Gerald Gardner, Alex Saunders, Dion Fortune, AND Viviane Crowley, everything they each knew! I created CoG - Covenant of the Goddess -- as well as Circle Sanctuary --
-- But hey, don't ask me to back up any of those claims, or i will freakout and tell all my friends what a meanie you are for asking me to "prove" my beliefs to you with "papers", and how you think you're better than us!!


4. Throughout this discussion, i think Celticlass and i have demonstrated very different attitudes and approaches. Hers is distinctly ad hominem and ridiculing, as when she said:

CELTICLASS:
"I'm sure this conversation IS distasteful to you,especially when there are so many of us lowly self taught and bloodline witches around,..........oh well."
If you notice in several statements, She has repeatedly tried to characterize me as some sort of spiritual elitist who "looks down on" you all -- because she knows how powerfully most Pagans object to such things, and perhaps because she knew it would fire everyone up so much, that few would bother to check out the truth of what was actually said and done, but would launch into a discussion of the total unfairness of such elitism --
And unfortunately, several did just that, taking up their (anticipated) parts of outraged defenders of the poor, wronged "Pagan of the people" -- without even checking to see who was really wronged.

If you knew me any better, you'd know what an absurd characterization that really was-- I have QUIT groups whose members i loved long and dearly, just because they began to develop a creeping elitism that was so objectionable to me.

I don't look down on anybody -- except perhaps, people who deliberately manipulate and misrepresent the truth, and then cast themselves as the poor, unfairly abused innocent - while -- to be brutally frank -- lying their pants off.

5. CELTICLASS SAID:
You keep sending me posts DEMANDING that I PROVE who and what I am.

GAIA:
YOU see, asking her to present evidence for her CLAIMS, is in her mind, the same as "demanding her to prove who and what she is". She cannot comprehend the difference between those two very different things -- or else she refuses to.
Psychology tells us that people who overly identify with their beliefs tend to become rigid, fanatical, and overly defensive because they really do begin to think that they ARE what they "believe" -- Rather than Divine sons or daughters of Divinity, with all they ever need to fulfil that divinity, already within them.

CELTICLASS SAID:
WTF,I'm suppose to bow down to you?

GAIA:
I never even suggested such a thing - her insecurity is showing.
Concluded p 4

Permalink Reply by Gaia-d on July 3, 2008 at 3:51pm

concluded, p 4 --

In fact, here's what i said in one of those replies she claimed i "filled" her email box with:

"Again, please know that i intend no offense or negativity toward you, whatsoever. I am simply trying to demonstrate that when someone makes a claim, they had better be able to back up that claim, or be prepared to be called on it.

From now on, please take care to not make claims you cannnot clearly and definitely back up -- Because i assure you, Alyx and I are certainly NOT the only ones who will catch you on these mis-statements. Sincerely and Respectfully -- Gaia~


6. CELTICLASS said:
Are you nuts? I NEVER asked you what more can I do to prove anything to you

GAIA NOW:
LIe.

a) Heather posted to GAia on Saturday, JN 28, 2008, 11:32:59 am:

"...What "proof" are you asking?? I dont understand."

b) Heather posted to GAia on 6-29-08, 8:06 am:

"...Oh for crying out loud,I truely am beyongd the frustration level with this. Prove to you I am a witch? I am a Clan Gordon member? Prove to you....... Prove to you... Prove to you ...."???

GAIA NOW:
Yes, i say she lied and i have proven it several times right here, above, with her own words quoted from her own posts and messages, compared to what was actually said and done -- complete with quotes and references.

Now, i ask you to consider this: How many quotes has she used to back up ANY of her now DOZENS of posts, and accusations against me? How many times has *she* proven that i said what she claims i said, by posting the actual quotes? -- While expecting you all to just take her word for it -- Perhaps because she's "Clan Gordon"?

I ask you to consider who brought this discussion here, and how she did so. How accurately did she portray what was said and done, or what was asked of her? How accurately did she portray anything about me, Alyx, the Yahoo Group, or any of her claims and accusations. -- Especially compared to the actual quotes and references i have repeatedly provided?

Pleases understand that I still have nothing against her personally, and am sure she is a fine witch, perhaps even a fine person -- when she is not trying to discredit someone who offended her.

And as i said to her privately, offending her was NOT my intention;

Rather, i had just two goals / intentions, and they were (as i've said several times):

a) to demonstrate the folly of making unsubstantiated claims to anyone;

b) to demonstrate the folly of BELIEVING unsubstantiated claims from anyone.

-- And i regret that in carrying out that intention, she was offended.

But i strongly believe that those two intentions were not only valid and honorable -- they were absolutely crucial and relevant in a group that purports to teach "Witch Essentials" to beginners, who need to learn both of those important lessons.

To espeically Starfire, Sabrina and _ the male (dunno whether he is Wiccan or not, and could not find his name) who took the trouble to actually check things out for themselves -- Thank you again.

To all the rest, - Thanks for whatever patience you were able to muster, regarding this thread --

Hail and Farewell -- at least for this thread.

Blessings -
~Gaia

Permalink Reply by Celticlass on July 3, 2008 at 4:39pm

I have sat quietly and read ALL the comments and on going statements,and watched my good name and reputation being dragged through the mud. If you have "read" the original posts then,of course,Sabrina you are entitled to your own opinion if you think I misrepresented myself,again that is your belief. Everyone who reads these posts and discussion can decide for themselves what is true and what is not,this is why we are all reasoning human beings. If you feel you must apologize to Gaia,then YOU do so. Let everyone determine for theirselves if I lied or not. I do not lie. I stated my belief and what transpired. There are more private posts that were not aired here. I will tell you all,as I told Sabrina in a private email,it is fine to disagree,refute,rebuttal,argue with what I said. To continually call me a LIAR and IAM LYING MY PANTS off,will get attention. Fortunately for GAIA,she will soon get all the "Written Credentiels" she needs,because one of the paganspace members,who is also a Clan Gordon member,told her mom,who is one of our national Clan Gordon conveniers how not only my reputation but my claims as a Family bloodlined Clan Gordon witch is getting lambasted on a public forum. This is someone who has known me for many years. .To publicly call someone a liar 6 times and delibertly destroy their reputatioin is slander and the written form of it is called libel.This is EXACTLY what has been done here,so be it. I tried to close this discussion down because of the negativity,but obvious there was a definite reason Sabrina left it open,which seems clear now. I stand by what my claims were and what I said,decide for yourselves. Heather.Celtic Earth Witch

Permalink Reply by Celticlass on July 3, 2008 at 5:20pm

I private email you out of respect to let you know that NOW my Clan Gordon IS aware of my name,reputaion and path of a family SCottish witch being dragged through the mud. I didnt tell them,there are thousands of folks that read these post. I have NO persecution complex, Why would I? You know this Sabrina.Why DID you leave this discussion open then,? I never asked anyone to help me. you took it upon yourself to get in the middle. What information Sabrina? Do you think this is ALL of the posts that were exhanged? Gaia didnt post all the emails she sent me,also the email from another member who asked her WHY she was NOT applying the wiccan rede.Gaia corrected her. I thought it was ILLEGAL to transpose posts like this. Like i said,let EVERYONE determine for themselves what is true what isnt.You dont need to shout either,I am no deaf!

Permalink Reply by Gaia-d on July 3, 2008 at 5:27pm

HEATHER SAID:

Fortunately for GAIA,she will soon get all the "Written Credentiels" she needs,because one of the paganspace members,who is also a Clan Gordon member,told her mom,who is one of our national Clan Gordon conveniers how not only my reputation but my claims as a Family bloodlined Clan Gordon witch is getting lambasted on a public forum. This is someone who has known me for many years. .To publicly call someone a liar 6 times and delibertly destroy their reputatioin is slander and the written form of it is called libel.


GAIA:

So when merely dissing someone no longer gets you the results you hoped, you turn to THREATS? -- puhleez.

Part of what (almost) screwed up the final post, was a bit i was trying to add at the end, that wouldn't fit; It went like this:

"When this is all over, as one who tries to live a conscious, responsible life, i will certainly take some time to re-consider it all, and try to determine how i might have better handled the situation and myself;
I very much hope and pray that Heather will do the same.
I suspect that if we ever meet sometime in the future, we might even be able to thank and appreciate each other for what we (ultimately) will have learned from each other, here. At least, that's my hope."

Heather, please beleive me when i say that would be a far, far better way to conclude this, than making what are essentially silly threats, or filling ourselves with the bile of vengeance.

But if you are determined to do so, i assure you i'm entirely up to talking with your friend -- My email is Gaia_d@Yahoo.com -- bring it on.
I just hope you're ready for it --
Because i've little doubt that you've misrepresented this entire thing to your friend every bit as much as you did here,
And when she hears (with due apologies to Paul Harvey) "The Rest of the Story", you may just find yourself even more unsatisfied and frustrated than you are here, now.

May i therefore respectfully but strongly encourage you to re-think the Vengeance response, and consider one that leads to personal growth and maturity.

We are NOT competitors, Heather - we are COMPANIONS on (pretty much) the same journey. As painful and embarrassing as it might be, We BOTH need to read those posts that were critical to us and consider WHY they needed to be written.


Blessings --
~Gaia

Permalink Reply by Celticlass on July 3, 2008 at 5:39pm

Gaia. It is not vengence. I didnt say a word to a living soul in or from my clan REREAD my post. I SAID there are thousands of folks reading these posts,some from my Clan Gordon SAW how many times you called me a liar ,including "lying her pants off" and called her mother who IS a National Clan Gordon convenier.,who knows me and their not happy.,as my reputation has been dragged through the mud. I could literally give a rats ass,as Everyone here can determine things for themselves. I'm sure I'd buy you an ale at the clan tent if I met you,however,I doubt that would be your cup of tea. I am sorry I joined your group,because as Sabrina said it was apples and oranges,very true oil and water civilized and wild.My fault in joing a group that civilived by certain RULES.I do not use negative energy to ever threaten anyone,why? Pointless,isnt it.? I am sorry for all the ugliness too,as I said debate,refute,misunderstandings,rebuttels are fine,calling me a liar is not. I will forward your address to them. Blessings.Heather.Celtic Earth Witch

Permalink Reply by Gaia-d on July 3, 2008 at 4:43pm

Hmm, well it seems in my effort to reduce several posts, i somehow managed to lose them. Sorry; let's try it again.

I must agree with you, Sabrina, and that's why i've decided to direct my final comments to you, and Starfire --
I cannot tell you both how gratifing it is to find people who resist going with the crowd, or just accepting whatever they are told, but rather try to seek out all sides to determine TRUTH for thesmelves. (Please any others of you, forgive me for not mentioning you by name, but know that you also have my appreciation and respect.)

So, here we go --

1. CELTICLASS SAID:
"Gaia.You have changed your story quite considerably,I guess,as soon as you thought when you responded to my post here,that not everyone would agree with you. When,on Goddesses green earth did you say we both agreed paper credentiels were not that important."

GAIA NOW:
I Have NOT "changed" anything at all -- perhaps she just wasn't listening.
For example, i said essentially the very same thing in one of my private email replies to her previously -- Here is the relevant passage:

"You have completely misrepresented everything i've said. I NEVER even suggested that "paper credentials" were superior to life experience --that was YOUR imagination.
And As i've said several times, credentials are not just "paper", they consist of (demonstrable, provable) experience as well: for example, if a Wiccan claims to have served as a hospital or military chaplain, that can generally be proven or disproven, as the case may be. If a Wiccan claims to have "taught classes for over 20 years", that should be provable, as well -- i've taught classes for over 30 years and i can give you the names of the colleges and community groups where my classes ran, as well as the years, and you can check that out to prove whether i'm telling the truth or "padding" my credentials.

In fact, i don't think "paper credentials" are (necessarily) more important than life experience -- i think they go together, as so many things do in Wicca, for a BALANCE.

I just said that any LEGITIMATE practitioner should be able to TRACE THEIR LINEAGE -- and such a lineage is only one particular kind of "credential" -- paper or otherwise.

Other types of credentials might be any of the following:

1) a list of classes taught at Universit(ies) or community groups;
2) press releases or reports of interviews by print or broadcast media as an "expert" on Wicca;
3) advertisements for scheduled engagements as a featured speaker, teacher, workshop or Ritual leader at national or regional Wiccan conferences and festivals;
4) national or regional positions held in Wiccan organizations.

See - all of those can be proven - or disproven.

Now to DISPROVE Celticlass's assertion that i "changed my story" about the value of credentials, here are just a few examples of similar statements made by me: these were all posted to groups she frequents:

a) Gaia posted to "BeginningWicca" Message #30521 of 30906, Tue May 13, 2008

"... it's been said that "only a Witch can make a Witch".
Of course, the MOST IMPORTANT INITIATION is by the hand of the Lady and Lord THEMselves, any others are simply recognitions of that primary initiation by groups of humans."

b) "...Also, if you want to teach, you OWE your students the very best possible training and preparation -- including credentials."
"... And again, "booklearning" is fine, but the real test is always practical -- can they display *evidence* in terms of real life circumstances, of all these.

c) Message #20836 of 22013, Gaia in "Witch Essentials on Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:12 am

"...It's important to remember, however, that Ultimately, it is the God(s) and Goddess(es) Who initiate Their own, and a HP/S can only confirm / affirm that which the God/dess(es) do or have done. THEY ultimately are the (only!) Ones who determine who is (and is not!) an authentic Witch."

b) Message #19988 of 22013 GAia in "Witch Essentials on Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:20 pm

" There is an *inner* aspect to initiation as well, which is not so obvious. Properly conferred, a Wiccan initiation includes a transformative personal experience the nature of which is ineffable. That is to say, it cannot be readily described. Such experiences in religous or spiritual settings are often termed "Mysteries." Thus the common observation that Wicca is "an initatiory Mystery religion." Part of the purpose in the long training period that normally leads up to one's first initiation is to try to put the candidate into the proper frame of mind to undergo and derive the fullest benefit from the transformative experience." (quote from "Brocktn",
http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=4&nav=messages&...

c) Message #15214 of 30905 Gaia in "BeginningWicca" on Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:51 pm
"Traditionally, a witch trains for at least a year and a day to prepare for the First Degree initiation. It (hopefully) indicates that initiation is NOT something that is done after reading a book or two, attending a ritual or two, participating in a discussion group or two....The time constraint - waiting a year and a day -- indicates the time, effort, discipline, focus, devotion, practice, and persistence that are needed to become a Wiccan. Certainly, time is not the only thing that matters: for some folks, Five years and five days may not be sufficient time to legitimately call oneself a Wiccan. But it does hopefully imply the right attitude: work, study, practice, learn, grow. Consistently. Persistently."

Continued, p 2

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